Alison: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll talk to author C Pam Zhang about her new novel, Land of Milk and Honey, and author James McBride. His latest novel is The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store, and he joined me last week before a packed house at the Stavos New Yorkers branch of the New York Public Library as part of our Get Lit with All Of It Book club. We'll hear some of my conversation with him. It was hilarious and rollicking.

We'll also hear a special musical performance from Jazzing, our Carla Cook, and they are good friends, so we interviewed them together and there was a lot of magic and sparks, and it was sparkly and great. That's the plan. Let's get this started with the upcoming Habibi Festival.

MUSIC - Nesrine: Rimitti

You're listening to the song Rimitti by my next guest, a French-Algerian musician named Nesrine, who will be making her US premiere this week at Joe's Pub as part of the week-long Habibi Festival. Launched in 2021, the festival brings together artists from Southwest Asia and North Africa, part of the world often abbreviated to the SWANA region. Over the next week, artists with roots from Marrakech to Baghdad, as it says on the event site, will perform in nightly double bills with genres like jazz, rapping rock.

The series is curated by Brooklyn-based visual artist, Meera Dugal and composer and saxophone player, Yacine Boulares, who will also be part of the performers this week. Here's a bit of music from his album. This is, Dar Shems, The House of the Sun.

MUSIC - Dar Shems: The House of the Sun

Join me now with a preview of the Habibi Festival in studio, our curator and producer, Meera Dugal. Meera, welcome to All Of It.

Meera: Thank you.

Alison: Artist, composer, and curator, Yacine Boulares. Yacine, nice to meet you.

Yacine: Hi, good to meet you.

Alison: Cellist, singer, and songwriter, Nesrine. Nesrine, welcome.

Nesrine: Thank you.

Alison: Listeners, our lines are open for you. If you're an immigrant from Southwest Asia and/or North Africa, call in to share what music and musicians make you think of home. Are you a fan of any of the performers in this year's Habibi Festival, or you can shout out another SWANA musician, spread the word about your favorite artists? The phone lines are open to you. You can join us on air, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and we can chat, or you can text to us at that number. Also, our social media's available @allofitwnyc. We want to hear about your favorite SWANA musicians.

If you want to shout somebody out or somebody, you're planning to see at the Habibi Festival, which is at Joe's Pub through October 7th. People maybe don't know this term that we were talking about, Meera, the SWANA region, mostly interchangeable with the Middle East, I think often. Why does it make sense to celebrate this region and its music in one festival, considering how diverse it is?

Meera: Sure. Thank you for that question. Yacine and Alex are our third co-founder, the director of Joe's Pub. We felt that there is a lot of energy from this expat community here in New York, and there have been a lot of opportunities for the community to connect and gather. There's a lot of informal spaces or nightlife gatherings or DJs who are bringing this community together but we didn't feel like there was a dedicated space, a concentrated festival to really shine a light, not only on the local diaspora artists from this region, but also to create that connection and that bridge to bring artists from abroad here to the US.

Yacine can share more about the origin story of the festival, being an artist from Tunisia, about the importance of having representation from this region and the importance of having positive connotations and opportunities to connect with Arab artists. Yacine, maybe you can share a little bit about that.

Alison: Yes, please.

Yacine: Sure. I'm French Tunisian saxophone player and composer, and I came here and one of the first things that happened is that all of my colleagues and all of my mentors when I was a student, were all of a sudden very interested in my Tunisian heritage, which growing up in the '80s and '90s in France was not really the case. Now, it has changed but all of a sudden, there was a real genuine interest here. That kind of changed my perspective on myself as a musician, on my identity as well. Fast forward to 2019, I was part of the Joe's Pub Working Group, which is amazing residency that Joe's Pub organizes, it's five artists a year.

I was attending a Flamenco Festival with my good friend, Tarek Yamani, who's going to be playing at the festival as well. We're attending this Flamenco Festival. We're having an amazing time, and after the set, we talked to each other and we both realized there's nothing that really represents our people from the SWANA region, AKA also the Arab world. Nothing that really represents us. We don't have a space, so that's when I realized, "Well, maybe we have to carve this space for ourselves."

I just showed up to Alex Knowlton, the director of Joe's Pub, and proposed the idea and there was a resonant, immediate, yes, let's do it, and that's how we embarked on this journey.

Alison: Nesrine, when you heard about this festival, what was it appealed to you initially? What did you get excited about?

Nesrine: This is a good question. First of all, like to know that in America and in New York, some people are interested about our music, like North African music, it's already something. Actually, it's something that I'm not so surprised because I know that New York has been always like a place where people meet, where people exchange cultures and where things happen. Yes, when I heard about Habibi Festival, first of all, it comes from Yacine, and he's an amazing musician, and I know that he tries all the time to bring the best together, best musicians, best place, best-- you know. [chuckles]

When I say best, it's like an energy, so when he asked me to come and perform, I don't know, this is my premier in New York, I'm so happy.

Alison: Please forgive me if I'm reading into this the way you said that New York is a place where people to investigate other people's cultures and are interested in knowing and having cross-cultural conversation. Have you found in your career that you've been places where that wasn't the case, where people really weren't interested in being open about it?

Nesrine: It's not that people are not interested, but it's more that people don't have the chance to actually do it. Whether it is because there is no diversity in the place where they are, either it's just because they live in their bubble and it's okay. It's just like, New York is a place where there is a lot of different people and it is a nurturing, like the--

Alison: Nurturing you say?

Nesrine: Nurturing. Thank you. Nurturing the possibilities of meeting of like mixing. I think it's more that. It's like the chance of the city is this, is the diversity of people.

Alison: Meera, what did these, the music of this culture of SWANA region, what is something which we've talked about how diverse it is, but what is something that's common? Is there a certain commonality, a current theme, a sound, a vibe, for lack of a better word?

Meera: I think that with the artists that we've brought into the festival. A lot of them are working with super ancient traditions. Whether it's the rhythms that are still staying alive or the instrumentation that has been 800 years old and it's still being put into new context, I think that there's a lot of reverence and respect for history and for the lineage that a lot of these musics carry inside of their instruments or in the rhythms. There is a lot of commonality across the regions. Some of the things like Gnawa that we've been featuring every year.

That is a tradition that tells a story of intra-African migration, so there is so much layer of evolution that these musics already have. It's inherent that these traditions experienced a lot of exchange and influence. To present these musics now is only reiterating the fact that inherent to these ancient forms is innovation. I think what we are excited about with the artists we've brought in is not only are they upholding these traditions, but they are doubling down on the fact that evolving them is true and authentic to the form.

Some artists are being torch-bearers and playing the really typical idea of what you might hear of the music that your parents loved, but they're bringing it to young audiences, or they're taking these ancient forms and adding in grunge rock, or adding in electronics and breathing new life into it and helping it to connect with more angles of the scene.

Alison: We are talking about the Habibi Festival at Joe's Pub through October 7th. My guests are Meera Dugal, curator and producer; artist, composer, and curator, Yacine Boulares; and cellist, singer, and songwriter, Nesrine. Yacine, if this question is not the right one for you, you guys can jump in any time, why do some people prefer the term SWANA to the Middle East?

Yacine: I think that's a great question. Thanks for asking it. I want to think that SWANA is a very diplomatic term that avoids keywords. The word Arab, which is demonized often for the last two or three decades. I think it's important for us to use-- we've had a lot of discussions about it with the team, and we want to use the word SWANA because it encompasses the ethnic diversity of the these regions because not all of the people from these regions are Arabs but there's a mutual language and there's a mutual heritage.

I think this is something that we want to bring forward as well as the term SWANA, which is so inclusive. We want also to say, well, this is also known as the Arab world-class.

Alison: Listeners, our lines are open to you. If you're an immigrant from Southwest Asia and or in Africa, call in, share what music and musicians make you think of home. Are you a fan of any of the performers at this year's Habibi Festival? You can shout out another SWANA musician, spread the word about your favorite artists. Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air, or you can text to us at that number. Our social media is also available, @allofitwnyc. Nesrine, as you mentioned, this is your premiere in the United States. Yay.

Nesrine: Yes, exactly. No, no. That's amazing. I'm so, so happy I'll be performing two times during the festival. I came alone from the European continent, but I am going to meet here musicians from New York and play with them. This is also when I was talking about meeting people, cultural things. It's a great thing for me. This is great.

Alison: When did you first pick up the cello? How old were you?

Nesrine: Oh, wow. Cello actually was my second instrument. The first one is mandolin because I started music with the North African classical music when I was four. Then the cello, I picked it up when I was nine, and I entered in the European classical music. These is my two ways of starting music, the Arabic, North African, Arabic, classical music, and then the European classical music with the cello. Then I brought everything together like the North African classical music, the European classical music, and everything else, which made me during my life music-wise. This is what my music is about.

Alison: When did you first learn of Nesrine's music, Meera?

Meera: Last year. That was actually a great story that Yacine brought to our attention. They have a history of collaborating. I know that Yacine was part of the catalytic moment when Nesrine started to develop her own voice and create her own ensemble.

Alison: I know.

Yacine: You want to tell the story of Nesrine?

Nesrine: Yes, maybe we can say it together. It's just years ago, I was cellist in a classical orchestra in Valencia, Spain, which is linked with Mediterranean world also. Yacine was in Valencia to record with Plácido Domingo, the classical singer. I asked Plácido Domingo with who we were doing something in classical music if I could come to the recording because one of my favorite musician was recording with him, and he's a cellist. He said, "Yes, of course, you can." Then I met there Yacine Boulares, I met Rhani Krija, who is an amazing Moroccan percussionist.

He's a sting percussionist, and of course, the Vincent Ségal, cellist. I was not a composer at the time, yet. I was not singing so much. I met them and something happened in that week that they were there. They linked me with this world of composing and being like a leader artist, and this is it. We stayed there Yacine and me, it was 2015, I think.

Yacine: '14 even.

Nesrine: '14. Oh my God. So much happened. We met the next time it was in an airport, lobby. We were like, "Oh my God." He was following what I did on social media. He said to me, "Nesrine, what about a visa? Do you have a visa to come to the US?" I was like, "No." He said, "Yes, maybe you should think about this because if you have one, I can invite you to my festival." I was like, "Okay."

Yacine: Actually, that brings another topic of mobility, which is really crucial. I'll come to it. To come back to this moment, 2014, Plácido Domingo. That was also a defining moment for me because that was my first big gig out of school. I went to new school. One of my professors was Robert Hayden, who's crossover producer, who did a lot of classical and jazz bands. He did a lot of Herbie's music, Wayne Shorter. He called me to do this crossover album of Plácido Domingo, who was paying tribute to the Mediterranean.

He was speaking a song from Spain, from Italy, from France, and [unintelligible 00:17:53] song standard. Robert Hayden's idea was, "I'm going to bring a Tunisian musician." He's going to arrange the song for Plácido Domingo, and we're going to work in the studio together for a whole week. I'm fresh out of school, and this is the best moment of my life. Every night, we're jamming with Vincent, with Hadi. Nesrine is here. We're having fun. I hear Vincent, who we heard earlier in the sample that you played, playing all of these incredible grooves from West Africa, from North Africa on the cello.

That was a defining moment for me where I decided to start this trio with Vincent, where we paid tribute to the Stambeli music of Tunisia, which is the cousin of Gnawa. Then, yes, fast forward to the visa. The visa situation. I've been on an artist visa since I moved here. It's a very hard visa to obtain. It's very difficult for artists from all around the world to come in the United States. It's very costly. We often have setbacks even though it's a multi-part process that goes through the USCIS and then it has to be vetted by security agencies, and then it has to be vetted by the local embassies abroad.

At every step, there can be failure. We had a setback recently. At the festival, we have an artist, Firas Andari, whose visa was approved and was supposed to come from Beirut. Things had been stalling since August, and he didn't get his visa until Friday, which is too late because his tour had to be canceled. We had a similar experience last year with one of the musicians from my band, from Tunisia. There's always something-- and it's very complicated.

What is amazing with Habibi Festival and being able to have the support of the Public Theater and Joe's Pub is that we're able to take on these challenges, which a lot of institutions want to take on because it's so overwhelming.

Alison: I can imagine. If the point is to bring people in and then there are all these obstacles to actually getting them there, it's hard to start with that, or it can be invigorating because you're going to get it done.

Yacine: Exactly. That's where we took on the challenge and where we actually did an artist visa for Nesrine. She can come in for the next three years.

Nesrine: I'm so happy.

Yacine: Come back and actually build a career here. She has employment offers from so many people now and she has a new career in New York. That's invigorating, as you say.

Alison: It is. Let's hear a little bit of your work. I'm going to ask you to put Rissala.

Nesrine: Rissala. It's the letter in Arabic. It means that.

Alison: Let's listen to Nesrine. This is Rissala.

MUSIC - Nesrine: Rissala

Alison: We'll have more about the Habibi Festival at Joe's Pub through October 7th. Stay with All Of It. You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests in studio, we're discussing the Habibi Festival at Joe's Pub through October 7th. My guests are Meera Dugal, curator and producer; artist, composer and curator, Yacine Boulares; and cello singer and songwriter, Nesrine. All the shows are double bills, is that correct, Meera?

Meera: Yes, that's right.

Alison: Are they act separate, will they be performing together, or are they complimentary? Why the double bills?

Meera: For our international artists, we wanted to give them two opportunities to perform while they've make this huge journey to New York City. We've doubled it up so that people do have the chance to hear every artist if they really wanted to, and to also help draw those connections between the two sets. We're not going to be explicit about it, but I think the artists who come can find those connections, or find the similarities that they want to, whether it's nostalgia or just from the music themselves.

We are hoping that the artists who come, like we said, with Nesrine, supporting her visa for three years, we hope that this is just the first of a long relationship with New York City. Some of these artists have gone to build tours around the country. Some of them are from other parts of the country who haven't had as much chance to be in New York. Some of our artists have continued on to have a relationship with Joe's Pub. Two of our artists from last year are now a part of the Working Group as were the Firas Zreik.

Omar Offendum, who headlined our opening night yesterday, is now going to be part of the New York Voices Commission at Joe's Pub. We really hope that Habibi Festival is just a springboard for more opportunities for these artists.

Alison: On one of your bills is a North African band, Bab L' Bluz. Am I saying it right?

Yacine: Bab L' Bluz, yes.

Alison: Thank you. Close. Were you familiar with them before, Nesrine?

Nesrine: No, actually, I didn't know them so it's great because I listened to what they do, but I'm going to discover live. I was wondering if people know what Habibi means in Arabic.

Alison: Oh, we were going to get to that.

Nesrine: You had your question already?

Alison: I'm ready for it. Let's hear a little music first and then we'll go directly there anything you want to know. We're going to play Oudelali from Bab L' Bluz.

Yacine: Bab L' Bluz, yes.

Alison: Anything we should know about the band before we--?

Yacine: They're rooted in the Gnawa tradition and they bring their spin of rock and awesome energy, which is funny. You know Mehdi Chaïb, saxophone player from Paris? Anyways, he's part of the band. I haven't seen him in maybe 20 years, so this is great. I'm so happy.

Alison: Let's take a listen.

MUSIC - Bab L' Bluz: Oudelali

Alison: You two were just whispering to each other. [laughs]

Nesrine: I didn't know that people could listen to us.

Alison: No, it's okay. Can you share what you were whispering?

Yacine: I was just talking about people in common. Sorry. That was--

Nesrine: Who play in that band, Bab L' Bluz.

Alison: Oh.

Yacine: Very good.

Nesrine: Yes, yes, and some of them live in Paris and they're also part of a very cool band called [unintelligible 00:25:40]. We were wondering if we knew the people.

Alison: Back to the idea of community-

Yacine: Yes, absolutely.

Alison: -and learning from each other. All right. Nesrine, you seem you want to tell us what Habibi means?

Nesrine: I was wondering because it's such a nice word.

Alison: Yes, go. Go for it.

Nesrine: Well, it's love. It's like, "My love." It's like, "My dear."

Alison: Beloved.

Nesrine: My beloved. You say it in English.

Yacine: You can use it very casually, like bro as well. You can be like, "Habibi, how are you doing?" It's very versatile. It's love and it's an endearment.

Alison: We had this great segment with, it's a German-based record company that's putting out the Habibi Funk Records.

Yacine: Okay.

Alison: They're so great. Why did you name the festival Habibi? Why is it the right name?

Yacine: It was actually Meera's idea.

Alison: Why was it the right name?

Meera: It was almost a placeholder because we were like, "Habibi Joe's Fest. We will think of a name later." We had a lot of other words we were thinking about that were things like gathering. I think at the end of the day, it was just the perfect fit. All of these regions and countries that we've brought in use habibi just in the language. It means beloved, it means friend. I think the vibe of the festival is really to turn strangers into friends. It's a word that everybody has a connection to and it just breeds a sense of community in the room.

Alison: Let's--

Nesrine: Sorry. I was just thinking it's also a word that people can say because in Arabic, we have crazy sounds, the [Arabic language]. Sounds that it's difficult for everyone to say. I think, in the whole world, people can say Habibi.

Alison: Let's talk to Iman calling in from Brooklyn, on line one. Hi, Iman.

Iman: Hi. How are you? Big fan.

Alison: Oh, great. Thanks for calling in.

Iman: Hi, Habibi Festival. So my name is Iman. I'm from Queens, but I live in Brooklyn. I just wanted to say thank you for the amazing festival that you guys organized. The best part for me personally is I migrated here in the late '80s, early '90s with my parents, who are Moroccan. My dad would dig and search to find spaces where they feature SWANA North African music. In the early '90s, we would find ourselves in these really cute small venues rocking Hassan Hakmoun. He's Gnawa. We had this very amazing community that I remember from the early '90s.

To play it forward, last year, I took my parents and I surprised them when you guys had the Moroccan female troop with Bnat el Houariyat.

Yacine: Bnat el Houariyat.

Iman: My dad's from Marrakesh and I surprised them. I didn't even tell them what it was. I just wanted a shout out to all the immigrant musicians and orchestras that were around in New York in the early '90s, who would be at weddings, who would find spaces to give us the immigrant community that home away from home. I really love that you guys exist. I'd like to also give them a shout-out because-

Alison: Totally.

Iman: -they did definitely do the work during that time, especially because it was even harder back then too. We were here. We definitely rocked and danced and ululated, and so many parties now are happening. Thank you for having this hub, where you feature Gwana artists from all different regions and you're doing us the immigrants who came earlier, just an amazing favor by having this space that we can take our parents to or go hang out at. Thank you.

Meera: Thank you, Iman.

Yacine: Beautiful. Thank you, Iman.

Alison: Meera, if people are interested in checking out the festival, where can they go find information? What would you suggest?

Meera: You can find us on Instagram at @habibifestival, or we're at www.habibi-festival.com. You can go to those two spaces to check out more about the artists and get directed to ticket links at Joe's Pub.

Alison: My guests have been Yacine Boulares, Meera Dugal, and Nesrine. We've been talking about Habibi Festival at Joe's Pub, goes through October 7th. We 're going to play a piece of yours, The Water Spirits. What would you like people to listen for in this piece?

Yacine: Bahriyya. We talked about the cello. Vincent Segal is playing cello and Nasheet Waits is playing drums. This is my tribute Stambeli music, so it's healing trance music from Tunisia. I would love for people to get entranced.

Alison: Let's take a listen. Have a wonderful festival.

Nesrine: Thank you.

Meera: Thank you.

Yacine: Thank you.

MUSIC - Yacine Boularès: Bahriyya (The Water Spirits)

 

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