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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with me. Happy Friday. If you're thinking about what to do this weekend, go back and give some of our conversations a listen. There's a lot of great art to see. We spoke with two of the Studio Museum's artists in residence whose work is on display at MoMA PS1. We spoke to artist Alvaro Barrington, whose beautiful, lush paintings of his Caribbean childhood are at the Nicola Vassell Gallery in Chelsea.

I also highly recommend Milo Cramer's one person show School Pictures. If you've had a kid who's gone through the New York City admissions process, it is a must-see. If you just want to get cozy this weekend on your couch and watch some great TV, Vulture critic Kathryn VanArendonk spoke with us earlier this week about what she's watching and we got some great listener suggestions, too. All of our episodes, plus transcripts now, are available on our show page at wnyc.org, plus you can download segments on your podcast platform of choice. As long as we're talking about TV, let's get this hour started with The Golden Bachelor.

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Alison Stewart: Last night saw the finale of The Golden Bachelor. We usually don't talk about reality TV here on All Of It. I have held a wall, but we decided to make an exception for this show because it seems to be breaking the mold and attracting new viewers. The premiere episode has become the most streamed unscripted episode in Hulu history, with 3.9 million views over the course of a month. According to Nielsen ratings, the Hometown Date episode of the show attracted 5.58 million viewers, making it the most watched episode of The Bachelor since 2021.

This season focused on 72-year-old Gerry Turner, a heartbroken widower ready to find love again. Unlike the regular Bachelor, which tends to pit 20-something women against each other, this season featured contestants entirely in their 60s and 70s who all seemed genuinely interested in finding a partner. Though some people have pointed out that this show might portray unrealistic expectations of aging, others have been pleased to see representation of what it's like to date in the later years of your life.

Coming up late in the show, we'll speak with Francine Russo, author of Love After 50, about more realistic expectations for dating in your golden years, but first, we need to talk about The Golden Bachelor, with comedian and bachelor superfan Jordan Carlos. I found out about his superfandom by listening to his excellent podcast with Michelle Buteau called Adulting. This is super adulting.

Jordan Carlos: Oh, my gosh. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Alison.

Alison Stewart: I love that you were just-- I was listening to an episode and you just went on a whole Golden Bachelor tear, and I said, if we do this, we're bringing Jordan in.

Jordan Carlos: Absolutely. It's good to come and talk about the golden bach. I don't have time to say bachelor. I say golden bach. I am a Stanford GareBear. That just means a huge fan. I realize the demo. I'm a huge fan of Gerry's from jump. I was like, "This guy, he just hooked me." I get what all the hoopla is about. I'd never watched The Bachelor before. I'd never watched it before. I believe in arranged marriages, I'm kidding. I'd never watched the bachelor before. I was like, "Whatever. Maybe this will be good."

I watch it. I'm drawn in. I buy the t-shirt. I got the keychain. I'm in. It's because it's older people, and it should only be this. This is the show. It should only be this. You got to say that about The Bachelor. It's like any other show that's streaming. You're like, give it 29 seasons and then-

Alison Stewart: -and they'll catch fire.

Jordan Carlos: They'll catch fire. That's what I'm saying.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, come on. We want to hear from you. Did you watch The Golden Bachelor this season? What did you think about how it portrayed dating in your golden years? What made you watch it this season? if you're a younger viewer, what impressions did it give you about aging? What did you think of Gerry Turner and his final choice? We'll get to that in a minute. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC.

Our phone lines are open. If you'd like to join us on air, you can also text to us at that number. Our social media is available, as well. We are talking about The Golden Bachelor. Jordan, you're not alone. You are a 40-something married father of two children, handsome Black man in his 40s, and you're watching this show. Here's a stat. It has done better in 18 to 14 year old demographic, and then the last seasons of the regular Bachelor in terms of rating.

Jordan Carlos: Are you serious, because we want to know what's ahead?

Alison Stewart: Is that what's going on?

Jordan Carlos: We want to know what--

Alison Stewart: 18 to 49 demo.

Jordan Carlos: The demo. That's the sweet spot, but I think we want to know what's ahead. It's good to know that, yes, you still can fall in love at a certain age. If you have an AARP Card, your heart doesn't stop yearning for more. I thought that that's what you did in exchange for the card, but apparently not. Let me tell you something. I want to go on a limb here, Alison.

Alison Stewart: All right.

Jordan Carlos: Bit of scoop, but there were some Mrs. Robinson, as I said, AARP definitely smoke shows happening on that show. I was like, what? People moisturize, and I'm here to talk about it.

Alison Stewart: There were some great looking people.

Jordan Carlos: Yes. Edith. My money was on Edith. She came out the limo. I was like, "That's it. Bro, stop the competition. Get out the golden rose and let's do it right now." Not the case. There's more. I thought that Leslie was very a good-looking lady, and apparently Prince did, too. These are not confirmed.

Alison Stewart: That was one of those things. Some of these women, which I thought was they've lived a lot of life, which is great. I think that had an impact on the way that they behaved towards one another, and the way that they viewed this whole experience. There was a lot of hope.

Jordan Carlos: There was a lot of hope. There was a lot of camaraderie. That cattiness, which turns me off about reality TV, was definitely dialed way down. It was like, okay, well, this is more entertainment and amusing than watching people be toxic and divisive towards one another. There's also pickleball.

Alison Stewart: Who knew pickleball was going to be part of it?

Jordan Carlos: Who knew? Not me. Pickleball is taken all the way over and Sandra's dive, everybody [unintelligible 00:06:48] [laughs].

Alison Stewart: There's very woman who had these Michelle Obama guns. Black woman in her 70s who just like, she is a competitor. They're playing pickleball and all's going well until Sandra's like, "I'm going for that ball."

Jordan Carlos: Yes, she is. By the way, she's had two knee replacement surgeries. Black don't crack. Gerry. It might have been too much for Gerry to handle.

Alison Stewart: Possibly.

Jordan Carlos: That's fine. I did like, it was such a great program. It was awesome.

Alison Stewart: Let me ask you a question about the production aspect of it, because you're in the business and you're a writer and all, we can say that now. The Bachelor is usually two-hours long. The Golden Bachelor was cut down to one-hour episodes. What do you think the shorter format did for the show and how did it help it as a piece of entertainment, if you think it did?

Jordan Carlos: Well, I think that it made you want to see more. If you watch Bachelor in Paradise, guys, it just goes on and on. These reality shows that just put in all these contrived hangover-- excuse me, cliffhangers, they make you just want to turn the TV off and you forget what you're watching. I feel like with this, it was just like, it was shortened and all the more. Again, we know that this is people in the final seasons of their life. It was only an hour long. I was concerned about, "Did everybody have time with Gerry, all the contestants?" It just kept me on the edge of my seat. Shorten it, short and sweet.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Gerry.

Jordan Carlos: Let's talk about Gerry.

Alison Stewart: Gerry is the first Golden Bachelor. Let's hear a bit of him talking from the first episode about why the 72-year-old man who had been married to his high school sweetheart, love of his life. Was it high school sweetheart? Did I make that up?

Jordan Carlos: No, you're right.

Alison Stewart: High school sweetheart, yes. Why he would become the bachelor?

Gerry Turner: I yearn for the second chance in life to fall in love again. The person who can lay down beside you at night, not have to say anything and you feel that's love. That's what I want. I'm ready for that. I hope that person's out there.

Alison Stewart: All right, cheesy music aside.

Jordan Carlos: Alison, can I say something now?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jordan Carlos: That is like ASMR from a heartbone. That is too much. Gerry's voice.

Alison Stewart: He's so emotional. When he first is introduced, he's not a finger gun kind of guy. They show pictures of him with his now deceased wife who died suddenly. What did you think about the way they brought him in and introduced him to America?

Jordan Carlos: Child, please. When he touched that photograph and then put in his hearing aid and then Cat Stevens played, I called my dad. It was so crazy.

Alison Stewart: Watching him put in the hearing aid, that was so-- I know that was TV-produced or manipulation, but it was also very real.

Jordan Carlos: Excuse me? [laughs]

Alison Stewart: He's like, "This is what I'm--" Right. They manipulate you on reality TV, but that he put it in and it was just like, "This is my life and this is the way it is."

Jordan Carlos: He put it out there bare bones and it was like, "This is the love of my life. This is a ghost that no one will ever replace. Try your best." I loved that. From the beginning, it sets the tempo and the play, and I'm in. He hooked me.

Alison Stewart: We've already got a text about this. I was going to get there. "What about the Hollywood Reporter article on Gerry's misstatements about having girlfriends since his wife died, and being a cheapskate? Is he the gold-digging bachelor?" Wow.

Jordan Carlos: First of all, so many questions, so many follow-ups, so much smoke. I have to say, Leslie and Theresa, during their fantasy dates and fantasy sweet and fantasy nights where they celebrated each other's bodies, at one point, Gerry in all this asked Theresa what she does for a living and she's like, "I am the Wolf of Wall Street." Then, Gare-Bear is like, a certain spark goes off inside because let me tell you something, security is a beautiful thing. Security is a beautiful thing. He's got cake with both, but I think she just put the icing on.

I did like the gender switch there, because traditionally I've seen it the other way around, and that's what's been presented to me in media. Gerry likes nice things. Gerry can have nice things also.

Alison Stewart: Gerry can have nice things. It's interesting that the piece, it's the 15 minutes of fame. He's climbed all the way up, he's America's sweetheart, and then there was this piece that came out not coincidentally.

Jordan Carlos: We're talking about Gerry's checkered past. That he owned a hot dog stand or burger.

Alison Stewart: They talked it up that he was a restaurateur.

Jordan Carlos: Excuse me. Excuse me.

Alison Stewart: I guess it's a burger restaurant, good point.

Jordan Carlos: That qualifies as a restaurant. If you were in France, you would say restaurateur. That could be a translation from Paris. I'm just here. I will literally twist myself into pretzels of logic in order to defend this man. Obviously, this is a fairy tale and people, they have a past that they can't escape. He did love someone for a very long time and wants a new mate. I am blown away by the vetting process where, and they will just find someone who went on a couple of Tinder dates with Gerry and it didn't work out. I do think that, yes, ABC presented him as this paragon of virtue, when now we know more. There's facts. What do you think?

Alison Stewart: People are human. People are human, and TV producers are TV producers.

Jordan Carlos: People are human, but no one is Gerry.

Alison Stewart: Jordan wants Gerry to adopt him, clearly.

Jordan Carlos: Yes. Can we do that?

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: Where's that show?

Alison Stewart: There's a whole subculture of The Bachelor, Bachelor Nation and they're a podcast, and it goes on, and Instagram accounts. There's this saying about someone being on a show for the wrong reasons. "Oh, this person's on for the wrong reasons." Maybe in the younger bachelor part of the franchise, that they want to be a media influencer or they want to promote a business, or promote themselves. Did you get a sense of that for the wrong reasons anywhere?

Jordan Carlos: I did not get a sense of that at all. I thought that everyone was there for very virtuous reasons, very real reasons. I was moved by the reasons that were there. There was Ellen who, she told her dying friend, she calls out to the cosmos like, "We made it." You don't see that with a Gen Z 20-year-old at all. It's the maximum expression of earnestness. That's what really got me. It was people that they're camera ready, and that's been missing, I think, from reality.

Alison Stewart: What did you think about that idea, because Gerry is very earnest? Many of the women were very earnest. That is not a word you usually associate with reality TV, being earnest. How did it play for you?

Jordan Carlos: I think it played really well. Like I said, I don't watch a lot of reality TV. I'm out here watching Fellow Travelers. I'm out here watching that stuff about documentaries, only-- The Frontline, things like that. Then, this cut through because it captured a truth. It really captured a truth, which is that we only have this one go around, and this guy is a bit of a catch, and he has all his hair.

Alison Stewart: He seemed decent. He seems very decent.

Jordan Carlos: He's a decent guy. That kind of thing, when you put people in that environment, and there's only room for one, you're going to get some real genuine takes and expressions and performances, or not performances, but you're going to capture something real. You don't find that on television.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Jordan Carlos, comedian, writer, and Bachelor fan. We're talking about The Golden Bachelor. We want to hear from you. What do you think of the series The Golden Bachelor? What made you decide to watch this season? If you're a younger viewer, we'd like to hear your impression of the show. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Someone texted to us, "I haven't watched The Golden Bachelor, but I'm crying just listening to your descriptions of the show. There will be more descriptions. Also, we have someone who is online, 78, who does not like the show. We'll hear from Charlie after the break.

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We are talking about romance after the age of 50, 60, and 70. We're going to talk to Francine Russo, who's written a book about it and has some great advice on how to handle dating in your 60s and your 70s. Right now, though, we're talking about The Golden Bachelor, has become this cultural phenomenon, this hugely popular hit show based on The Bachelor series, but this time with a bachelor in his 70s and contestants in their 60s and their 70s.

Jordan, you were saying-- Jordan Carlos is my guest. You were saying during the break that this show offered you hope.

Jordan Carlos: It offers me so much hope, Alison. They go to Costa Rica together. They're in twin bathtubs like it's a dang Cialis commercial.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: When they get to the final date, yes.

Jordan Carlos: When they get to the final dates. I'm like, "That's possible? That's a real thing in the world?" If Gerry can do it, I can do it. I'm excited. I've been married 16 years. I would love to do twin bathtubs sometime while looking at a volcano. Yes, that makes me think that it's all laddering up to something and that there is hope in that verse of my life.

Alison Stewart: We have opposing opinions on the calls. We've got someone who likes The Bachelor, this episode a lot, and someone who doesn't. Let's talk with Charlie first, calling in from Connecticut. Charlie, you're 78 years old and you did not like The Bachelor. Share with us why.

Charlie: Hi, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Hi. Thank you for calling in.

Charlie: It was so degrading for women. 20 women with their boobs hanging out, "Please, pick me. Please, pick me. Give me a rose. I'm dying if I don't get a rose." Alison, I can't even believe having this guy on talking about his [inaudible 00:18:03]. I would never let my granddaughter watch a show like this. It is so degrading to women.

Alison Stewart: Charlie, I'm so glad you called in. Now, this is so funny, because you like the show.

Jordan Carlos: Charlie's not wrong.

Alison Stewart: You're Jordan. Jordan's not wrong, but-

Jordan Carlos: Charlie's not wrong.

Alison Stewart: -the other Jordan in my life, who is our producer on the show, who is our bookish, produces our book series Get Lit, has had watch parties. She loves this show. Jordan is in her 20s.

Jordan Carlos: Jordan is in her 20s. Let me tell you something, my heart is in its 20s, and I hope Charlie, one day your heart will be there, too. I have to say that Charlie is right. He's right. The dresses were definitely-- There was one contestant that is trying to show Gerry what he's missing, and oh boy. Things get-- It's greater later, I understand. The lady looks great. It's all held up. Wonderful. I think that yes, there is a low-brow essence to the show, but at the same time, in life, you can't enjoy the peaks, you can't enjoy the works of Edith Wharton unless you've watched Bachelor in Paradise.

[laughter]

Jordan Carlos: I feel as though you need a combination of high and low. It really was nice to be in tune with what a lot of people were talking about, because often I find myself, I feel like Charles. I feel like Charlie. I do feel as though sometimes I will watch things that are so niche and so British or so inside baseball that I'm not expanding out. Sometimes it's okay. You know what? I'm still the same guy.

Alison Stewart: I've had a great Wall of China on the show about reality TV until this segment, because I did think it was a bigger cultural phenomenon.

Jordan Carlos: It was.

Alison Stewart: I think there's something really interesting about it. Let's talk to Liz calling in from Short Hills. Hi, Liz. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Liz: Oh, hi. Thanks for having me. I'm listening to your conversation and really enjoying it, and it's so interesting to see the different perspectives on it. I watched the season. I really did enjoy it. I felt though there was one thing that stands out from all the Bachelor seasons of the past, and that was this generation of Gerry and these women, they were all very respectful, collegial, and kind to each other. We haven't always seen that. In the younger generations, they're mean girls and there's game-playing, and these participants they were always so respectful of each other.

I feel like that should really be appreciated by the younger generations and noticed, because this culture is canceling this generation. They really shouldn't. We still have a lot to learn from them. I think this was a great example of how not to be petty or disrespectful, but how to be kind in the circumstance, even if you're competing for the love of one man. There's a kind way to do that, and respectful collegial way.

Alison Stewart: Liz, thanks for calling in. We've got Brian calling from Ridgewood. Brian, thank you so much for calling in.

Brian: Yes, thanks for having me. I watched the finale last night. I braved through the commercials instead of waiting on Hulu. Oh my God. This was so fun. I'm 31 and we watch some dating shows at my house. I'm pretty picky about them. Love Is Blind is fun. The Queer Ultimatum, if you haven't seen it, run and don't walk to go watch that. I loved this show. It was so fun. It was so sweet. Like the last caller was saying, it was just nice seeing all these women just love and appreciate and respect each other in ways that, I don't know.

Younger people can get really petty and rude. Being such a monogamous group of people, it seemed like they were very open and kind with each other [laughs]. The most drama that happened, I think Kathy was her name, ended up being like, "Theresa, you're telling me too much. I don't want to hear all the nitty-gritty details about your dates." That was the most drama. That's the most they could stir up. It. It was really fun.

Alison Stewart: That was her just being honest and authentic. That was interesting. She was like, "I just don't want to hear this." It wasn't even like, "You're a bad person." She was just like, "I don't want to hear about your dates with this man."

Jordan Carlos: Right, because it's like she knows how to set a boundary because for a lot of the people, it's the thousandth time they've had the experience, not the first time. I think what the caller was talking about previous to this, the one from Summit New Jersey. By the way, congrats on your mall, Short Hills. I feel as though what this show has taught is grace. There's grace in defeat. Even Leslie was like, "I've lost again," which was really sad, and we wish her well. Anybody that dated Prince is down for good things. That's all I have to say.

Alison Stewart: There was the show also dealt with tragedies. People talked about death of spouses. One woman left the show because her daughter was having severe postpartum depression. Things you don't usually get on the regular Bachelor franchise. There was also the spectrum "I'll throw the skunk on the table" sex. There's the fantasy suite--

Jordan Carlos: We call that celebrating other people's bodies. Now, go ahead.

Alison Stewart: They have the fantasy suite, which is usually it's understood that these people who have made it right down to the end, will get an opportunity to have private time, no camera crews around, Jordan is putting his hands over his ears.

Jordan Carlos: My glasses are fogging up. Go ahead, Alison.

Alison Stewart: It's a funny clip from the show. It's a clip from the show where you can hear a host Jesse Palmer who's getting embarrassed talking about sex with the bachelor Gerry.

Jesse Palmer: There's overnight dates. Fantasy suites. When you hear that, what comes to mind?

Gerry Turner: Many people will be looking at that as, "Do people my age still knock boots and have a good time behind closed doors?" Your parents, are you still feeling like mom and dad come down the stairs with a little extra spring in their steps?

Jesse Palmer: TMI Gerry.

Gerry Turner: I may be having that kind of day.

Jesse Palmer: Let's just keep this on you. Can we?

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I just love that he said knock boots, that's also-- And then he turned it back on the young gentleman. Why is this embarrassing to you? Why is this difficult for you to handle, host man?

Jordan Carlos: Exactly. I'd never seen the host ever get flustered like that. That was such a great moment. Gerry, reaching back into the 90s with knocked boots. Gerry came to play and I love that for him. It just shows that it gets greater later. It gets greater later, and yes, we should talk and normalize the conversation around the fact that we expect older people to stop wanting to have sex. I thought that was such a good moment. It's one of the reasons that it just kept me watching.

Alison Stewart: I had this moment when I was watching. I watched the first episode and then the last two, and I had this moment when I realized I'm actually closer in age to these ladies, the women who are on the regular Bachelor.

Jordan Carlos: First of all, impossible. First of all, no. This interview is over. Cannot be.

Alison Stewart: That's just fun. [unintelligible 00:26:11]

Jordan Carlos: Fake news. Yes. Okay, go ahead.

Alison Stewart: All right. In three years, I'm near the age of one of these women on The Golden Bachelor. How do I feel about this? Then watching them be so friendly to each other and do each other's hair. I enjoyed it more than I expect to. I told you I'd only watched one other season of The Bachelorette, when it was the Black Bachelor because I wanted to support. Then I realized after watching it, I was so mad I couldn't get those moments of my life back because I was like, "Not doing this again." Then watching this season, parts of the season, there was something about it that was affirming.

Jordan Carlos: Yes. I don't think that it was just like a one-off. I think they should just start doing this more often.

Alison Stewart: Do you think there's going to be a Golden Bachelorette?

Jordan Carlos: I think there's going to be a Golden Bachelorette. I want to see a Golden Bachelor in Paradise. That's literally just, "Let's go to a Sandals. Let's go to a--" [laughs] What do they call it?

Alison Stewart: Make a cruise, on the cruise.

Jordan Carlos: All inclusive. Oh my God.

Alison Stewart: A cruise would be good, right? Bachelor in Paradise. Golden Bachelor in Paradise on a cruise.

Jordan Carlos: Yes, Shuffleboard. You better. Come on the line dancing alone. Let's go.

Alison Stewart: It'll be so, so good. Spoiler alert for anybody who's watched. We spoiled it already. Gerry made this choice. How do you feel about he chose Theresa who was a 70-year-old grandma, Nana. Gerry charmed her grandchildren. How are you feeling about that?

Jordan Carlos: I felt Gerry chose-- He's loved well, and he also loves wisely. Gerry has gone ahead and understood that, first of all, retirement is tough. He saw that house, it was great. It was in New Jersey, a nice colonial with good siding. I know he was summing-- I could just see the calculator calculate. He's like, "Yes, I could get used to this." He's doing that, and now I hear just through the grapevine that they're looking at places in South Carolina on the shore, really nice.

Alison Stewart: I love the idea that these people are going to be happy.

Jordan Carlos: They're going to be really happy.

Alison Stewart: If you're 72 and 70 years old, enjoy the rest of your life together.

Jordan Carlos: Enjoy the rest of your life. Truly, I felt with Leslie when we did the home-- we, wow. Listen to me. When they did the hometown with Leslie, her family left a little to be desired. I felt with Theresa it was just more solid and it was probably going to be a better fit because when you marry somebody, you marry their family. [laughs] Yes [unintelligible 00:28:52] learned that.

Alison Stewart: That is true.

Jordan Carlos: You just huffed.

Alison Stewart: I just think, I'm glad we had this conversation.

Jordan Carlos: Me too. Me too.

Alison Stewart: I wasn't sure which way it was going to go. Some people have not liked it. I'm going to be honest. Some people have texted in that they don't want us talking about reality TV. I thought it was an interesting cultural moment.

Jordan Carlos: It's an interesting cultural moment. By the way, it was public television that brought us reality TV. If we can just bring it full circle, public media. We can only blame ourselves,

Alison Stewart: We can only blame ourselves. Jordan Carlos, you should check out anytime he is performing on stage and definitely the Adulting podcast. Anything else really great coming up?

Jordan Carlos: Yes. Please watch First Wives Club on Netflix. Really happy about it. It's been in the top five for two weeks now. I both wrote and acted on season two of that. To have it get this platform is crazy. Please, support Black folks doing their thing. Appreciate it. yes.

Alison Stewart: Jordan, thanks for coming in.

Jordan Carlos: Yes.

 

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