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From W N Y C special reports division we bring you another program on New York City and the people in agencies that are trying to make it a better place to live and work in here is Richard Pyatt W. N.Y.C. program manager our guest today's Herminator Densmore author of a critical analysis of the news and editorial content of the Times entitled All the news that fits. Mr Densmore started his newspaper career with the Baltimore American in one nine hundred twenty three immediately after his graduation from Johns Hopkins University and after a period with the Baltimore Sun He joined the foreign desk of the New York Times in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine rising to the position of editor of his international edition from one nine hundred fifty one to nine hundred sixty He's also taught in legal lumpia Graduate School of Journalism and served as a visiting professor of journalism at Long Island University and has done more as presently in the Department of Communication Arts at Seton Hall University first of all Mr Densmore there's a catchy title here all the news that fit and obviously that is a takeoff on the time slogan Yes yes. In verging this in some way the slogan What did you mean to imply here. Well the slogan of course is all the news that fits. When you make up the paper in the composing room of the New York Times the printer will take the take the type from the galleries and put it into the page to it is. Surrounded by a steel chase he has to chip away some of the stories to get the men to the page and when he gets finished and he's locking up the chase he remarks all the news that fit that is that fits into the chase but of course the editor knows that sometimes it might be a little bit more than merely the chase that was involved maybe there was a lack of chase maybe there was some news that was distorted a little or twisted a little or omit it. Or perhaps even fabricated. At the present time the media and all forms of media television radio and newspapers and we are going to focus on newspapers fall under a general criticism of not doing enough not doing what they do well enough and of a dearth especially in New York City of varying opinions and news but we only have three or four newspapers here and several books have been written your book coincided with the Gay Talese book the kingdom and the power. Was this intentional or did you know that there was going to be a book about the New York Times at the same time you wrote yours no no I didn't know at all that there would be another book about the New York Times when I wrote mine actually I contracted for my book in August in one thousand nine hundred sixty seven and I did not know about the Talese book until early in one thousand nine hundred sixty nine. His book incidentally has had an enormous amount of publicity. I think he's been over on every radio and television show in New York City this is the first time I have been on a radio show in New York City and I have not yet met on a television show produced in New York City is this deliberate Well I I don't know what you would call and I I can't see how I was excluded and he was accepted everywhere without its being deliberate by that I mean were you actually refused after making requests to go on the air indeed I was I won't mention the name names but I was well I wonder if it has something to do with what you were saying about the New York Times and essentially what are you saying about the New York Times in your book all the news that fits well I'll answer it in two parts first of all I think it does have something to do with what I'm saying about the New York Times and secondly what I'm saying about the New York Times is that. After the Second World War. When I was made associate foreign editor of The New York Times I came to feel that not only the New York Times but the United States government itself was being rather soft toward the expansion programs of the Soviet Union for example all of Eastern Europe was being taken over by the Russians with hardly a whimper from anybody. This. Irritated me I felt that these hundred million people deserved better of us we had fought to blot out Naziism which was certainly a terrible blot on the face of the earth we removed them we removed Italian Fascism and we got a democratic Western Europe and I didn't want to see a non-democratic Eastern Europe unfortunately that is what we got. The New York Times that very little about this. Had some what I would call hammering editorials about it but really didn't hurt any action of any kind to. Repel or or discourage the Soviet government in its actions. Then came the loss of China that is a story that's too big really for me to discuss here. Let's narrow that I was in one nine hundred forty nine when the Korean War I mean really followed in one thousand nine hundred fifty and that into deadly was prepared play and Officer and in every way engineered and started by the Russians by Joseph Stalin who was then living he died three years later. You know I wanted to get a frame of reference first what should be the function of a newspaper in your viewpoint and the reason I ask that question is that your book amounts to an attack on the integrity of the New York Times and its publishing staff what should the newspaper be in terms of its duty to the public and its responsibility to the public. Well if a newspaper says it prints all the news that's fit to print it's duty clearly could be to print all the news that he can possibly find about a country about a situation about the United States about what is going on and it I don't think the New York Times has done I think is injured excluded a large amount of news about Russia about Eastern Europe about the career for example. About Viet Nam north and south now I feel that it's the duty of a newspaper. To be fair with its readers and I don't feel this is been done Mind you I don't really feel that my book is an exposé of the New York Times actually what I have tried to do is to tell the people in my book what The New York Times believes and what it stands for and has publicly said Joe So this is hardly an exposé would you say that the other newspapers have lived up to this responsibility that you've just described I mean no papers I mean in this area the eastern area no not really I don't I don't feel of a have been they haven't they haven't pretended to be as great a news source or the NIE as New York Times has and therefore I feel that their fault is less but the New York Times is still a very important and useful newspaper I have and I never had any doubt about that and I said so in my book one of the charges that you make in your book is that the Times has as you put it forsaken objective reporting for liberal slanting. Now there is this notion and I'm sure that with all the years of experience that you've had as a journalist that objectivity is always going to be less than pure and how would you. For example document this charge of the times as for sake an objective reporting for liberal slanting. Well I could I could go over many areas of that but perhaps I ought to go over one that creates the greatest heat at the moment and that is Viet Nam. In covering the war in Viet Nam I feel that. The New York Times. Slanted stories in regard to D.M.. In regard to the but it took tree Kwaku not to treat quad was actually the leader of a very small faction of Buddhists in the unified Buddhist church which in turn was only a small section of all the Buddhists in Viet Nam there were something like nine million Buddhists in Viet Nam that New York Times always said thirteen million but it's in Viet Nam and it frequently spoke of victory KRON as the leader of the Viet Nam but well actually he was the leader of only perhaps one hundred thousand of the unified What is church in that way the news was slanted when the New York Times also said that cause. Was being spoken of by United States officials in Viet Nam as a possible premier for South Viet Nam Now in view of the this man tree qualms record nothing worse could have happened to Viet Nam South Viet Nam then the. Putting into power. Creek won as the prime minister of the country I feel that this was slanted reporting I feel that the Times knew better. Than to report like this how would you distinguish Mr Densmore between slanting and interpret ing that is the news some event in the News What distinction do you make when the interpretation goes let's say to the left or to the right or to the middle how is this distinguish between slanting the news and interpret in the news well in the case of Eastern Europe The New York Times I feel slanted to lose by giving a bloodless. Interpretation of what was going on it never covered the news and to tell what it was that that the Russians were doing to the people for instance I cite in my book a book written by Flora Lewis who was incidentally the wife of the then foreign editor Sidney growth and who is now assistant to author Oxfam's Berger the publisher well. Flora Lewis wrote a book on oil field I know of feel with a very shadowy dubious character in The New York Times columns until florist for all flora Lewis came along and wrote the story of Noel feels life and that of his wife Well it turned out that all field. Was a Soviet agent a communist agent he didn't want to betray State Department secrets but he was perfectly willing to go to Europe and. Worked for the Soviet government there. There's no it there's no earthly doubt that there he was a communist that he was a communist agent and he's even said to have asserted that he put the finger on Ignace Rice I saw that a Soviet agent who was murdered by Stalin because he defected How does the New York Times figure in this the New York Times figures isn't in this and not having given that news when the review of the book came along Incidentally the daily reveal of missed Lois's book came along it mentioned the word communist in only two places one of them in connection with communists and I believe Hungary and the other was the alleged report as it said or the charge that these people were communists while every other book reviewer had asserted that she established that there were communists being on the shadow of a doubt but the New York Times didn't and the same thing was said incidentally in the Sunday Book Review of the same book but both review said the book was well worth writing and it was a great contribution now this contribution could have been made in the columns of The New York Times long before Miss Flora Lewis made them want it but The Times did not do this one naive question before I ask you to give us the four methods by which you indicate in your book that The Times does slant the news and that is Couldn't it be possible that what you just cited did not come under what the Times considers all the news that's fit to print. Well I obviously did not that's what I mean that's my quarrel when it. Does not the editor of the paper and its staff have the option of deciding what is. What is constituting the important news and what they consider should be included in the news in other words weirdoes the option stop and the objectivity begin while I don't think the option necessarily stops or starts anywhere the time has a right. Under the First Amendment to print the news or not to print it to slant it needed to do what it pleases with it. But I also have the right to discuss what it is doing to tell the people what they're doing especially since it's now the only full size non specialized newspaper in New York City a city of eight million people that are likely Manhattan I don't know about the surrounding papers but I believe the New York Times the service city mainly and not only the city it serves the United States it has its serves two hundred eighty newspapers in Asia in Europe in Latin America then it has worldly influence Yeah and so I feel I I feel the times as as as a public institution as it is ought to be discussed. And actually I think it can be helped in that manner Our guest is Herman age then is more author of this critical analysis of the news and editorial content of the times which is untitled all the news that fits and Mr Densmore Could you summarize for as the four methods that you claim the Times uses to slant the news well I I would I would I don't remember that I I didn't mention any for methods in my book somebody else found that they were for methods but. I would say that it slants and there is frequently by. Treating as I said in Eastern Europe. Taking communist handouts and presenting them as. As the the news of the country now let me give you one example and this I think is a terribly egregious thing mind you I think the New York Times has changed there has not affected change some rich reporting whether I had anything to do or not I certainly don't claim anything but they it has changed somewhat since my book was published that may be a pure kind of coincidence and no doubt it was. The coverage of Eastern Europe I think has improved but for example in one thousand nine hundred sixty six one of the Times reporters went there this was exactly ten years after the Hungary in Revolt of one thousand nine hundred fifty six. And this reporter wrote back to the times that there the people didn't really know what it was all about in one nine hundred fifty six that they had forgotten about and that their. Qadar the Premier was now something of a hero. Well I think that is the worst kind of slanting that you could possibly get I happen to know from sources that I believe to be accurate Hungary and speaking people who have been in Hungary recently who say that the hatred of the Russians is almost indescribable. And to say that there they didn't know what the revolt was all about was well pretty bad where would the reporter making that claim be responsible for his information in other words this is the information fed to the desk of the times from one of the reporters on location is this is this In other words how would you describe this reporter's ability if he deliberately flatting this or did he truly interview individuals who told him this in other words where where does one viewpoint take on more validity than another well here in View interview the Communist Party member and a taxi cab driver and I don't think he really tried to get his news anywhere he said there were fifty thousand Russian soldiers in the country was the most important piece of news that he had in there. The Times published it and the Times has to take responsibility for what it what it reporters right. Venture Lee He left there. In one chapter in your book you of course you document with a number of chapters and one you mention the New York Times coverage of the assassination of President Kennedy in what way are you accusing The New York Times of slanting the news in this event. I didn't greatly accuse the New York Times of slanting the news I accuse the New York Times of not seeking the news in that particular case perhaps there another form of the omission of news now when the Warren Commission went to work you know automatically cut off the newspapers from really pursuing their own investigations they couldn't very well it seems to me go about looking for. The truth of the matter when the United States Commission headed by the chief justice of the United States was undertaking its waivers. The New York Times whoever has not shown itself. Very. Weak about going ahead and exposing the United States' efforts to raise a human army. To go into Cuba I remember the Times went to a good deal of trouble to see that the the efforts to raise its army in Guatemala I believe it was one hundred and also in. Florida. But the New York Times. Was was not at all intent upon exposing the. The the machinations if there weren't any on the part of Oswald who was a communist. I think the Times was taken aback that a communist had committed this murder and I think the Times was was committed practically to the principle that this was going to be proved to be an individual act having no conspiratorial. Links and that that's the way it turned out to be well The New York Times I had an editorial saying it backed in every particular the Warren Commission report and then about a year later. It said that they have felt that they Warren Commission now should answer the many charges still unanswered questions in connection with the report now through the methods of omission and even called mission you have indicated the times slants its news and especially in to the liberal area if this is so if you have reason to believe that its own Certainly you must since you spend a great deal of time writing a very interesting book about it why number one do you think the changes come about in The New York Times and to what in your view is wrong with a liberal point of view. Well I'd like to take down in several sections first of all I want to say that as I have already said on this broadcast that I feel are there much important and useful news in The New York Times and also useful editorials. Somebody wrote me a letter and practice he was joking but he said he didn't know whether he could believe that the baseball scores were accurate or that the financial tables were accurate Well of course this is nonsense the baseball scores are entirely accurate and the financial news and tables are excellent. I read them every day and I'm sure I get honest news when the Times prints a text I regard that as pure gold the Times does not distort change in any way a text it's an accurate. And real and truthful expression of whoever makes the statement and this as in the days friends of Hitler we used to print their the entire texts of Hitler speeches with all their anti semitic poison and all that nonsense but it was always in the times and we prided ourselves on the fact that here here was what the Germans were saying and nobody had a right to say that the Times didn't print the news well of course you don't have enough of those texts in the Times to cover everything. Let me say. Next. That. The Times is added to for instance. On slanting the news in regard to domestic situations I thought this was particularly egregious in connection with a tap. Now Otto TEPCO was in the State Department and he gave certain documents showed certain documents to the Senate Security Subcommittee. In order to prove that he was not lying to the committee now this is a very different situation from giving documents to the Soviet government. During a war. And somebody feels that there and one and the same I don't feel that they're one in the same at all and I also felt that the New York Times was not interested in security in the State Department there then the top we're told TEPCO has spent a long years in. A. Pen umbra let us say. And. The Times did nothing to help him but everything to. Keep him from being reinstated they didn't publish any pictures they didn't make any clothes labora of art to attempt and then when he was finally reinstated released the Woodward's reinstated and State Department but he was put into the as a member made a member of the subversive activities control board the times nearly. Well it went almost went into a panic. In opposition to this position protests at the present time to do more and the final minute or so that we have yes would you say that the New York Times today is now back on course as you conceive the newspaper should be or is it still way off course in terms of your description that it slams the news I think it's still off course decidedly of course in its editorials and I I would say it's still off course and regard to its handling of the news. Well if you had your way would be the ideal newspaper. The idealist paper it seems to me would be the one that that tried to print as objective as possible all the new ones that gave. Many more text than the New York Times gives friends and so I was bitterly disappointed when I saw that the New York Times did not print the text of General Earl de Wheeler's speech in Westbury Long Island last year before the newspaper editors there this was a clear and and forceful statement of the United States' military position in South Viet Nam. I would also take a much different attitude from the editorial attitude that I would not take an attitude withdrawing from the Soviet Union but much more one of standing up to the Soviet Union because I think that's the only thing that the Soviet leaders understand they don't understand running away at all and that the worst possible approach to these leaders food for thought is in the book all the news that fits by Herman H. Densmore and if you have not been convinced in our conversation of anything being wrong perhaps you might want to see for yourself we thank our guest her manager and more author of the news that is all the news that fits thank you with part you've been listening to an interview with Herman did more Author of all the news that fits speaking with him was Richard Pyatt W N Y C program manager this was another program from W. when one special features division.