Kate Hinds: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kate Hinds in for Alison Stewart.

There's a reason that this scene from the 1969 movie, Midnight Cowboy, has become so incredibly quotable, "I'm walking here, I'm walking here". It's not just because Dustin Hoffman as Ratso Rizzo delivers the line so well, it's because it captures what many of us New Yorkers feel is one of our inalienable rights, that the pedestrian is king, and we should be able to walk down a sidewalk and cross the street unimpeded. This is New York, and there are over 8 million of us, not to mention visitors and commuters, and thus, there is a lot of impeding.

My colleague James Ramsay is a digital producer for WNYC Gothamist, and he recently took it upon himself to define New York City sidewalk etiquette. You can read the story on the Gothamist website. It's a public service wrapped up in an enormous amount of fun, and he joins me to explain. Hey, James.

James Ramsay: Good afternoon, Kate.

Kate Hinds: Listeners, we want to hear from you. What is your biggest sidewalk etiquette pet peeves? What are your rules? How do you obey them? What's your opinion? How do you solve the chaos that is New York City streets? Give us a call, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. I would especially like to hear some positive stories.

James Ramsay: Please.

Kate Hinds: Did you gently provide real-time feedback to someone, and how did it go? Call us, 212-433-9692. You can also text us at that number or reach out to us on social @AllOfItWNYC. James, what made you want to define what good sidewalk etiquette is?

James Ramsay: Kate, I think there are a few things that have changed in recent years. If you think maybe 15 years ago, not everybody on the sidewalk had an iPhone. 10 years ago, the e-bikes hadn't really taken over. You didn't have people making deliveries popping up onto the curb. Well-documented fact that everyone got a dog during the pandemic and now that creates--

Part of it was that along with the timeless rules of sidewalk etiquette, there was a new list of things to complain about. At the same time, we had a little bit of a hypothesis of especially coming out of the pandemic with people who are cheering for the recovery. Maybe there's a little bit of a new perspective, maybe people would be more lenient or more generous. A vibrant city is also a chaotic messy city. Like you said, there's 8.5 million people here. A sign of a healthy town with office workers back and tourists back is that there's a crowd on the sidewalk.

Kate Hinds: Yes, and we like crowds. They're in our blood. We just want them to follow some rules.

James Ramsay: To do everything we-

Kate Hinds: Exactly, so-

James Ramsay: -telepathically ask them to do.

Kate Hinds: -let's start with the rules. You surveyed, was it 400 people?

James Ramsay: Well, we put out a survey and we said-

Kate Hinds: You put out a survey.

James Ramsay: -what is your one sidewalk etiquette rule? A little over 400 people responded. The thing that I was saying about maybe people have a generous attitude now coming out of the pandemic. Nobody had a generous attitude. Everybody had something to complain about. There was some consistency there. Almost everybody said you need to stay to the right, the sidewalk is a two-way street. Almost everybody talked about groups, especially tourists, that are walking three, four a side, that you got to break that up. Things like that. That's what really started to come out of the survey.

Kate Hinds: Yes, walking on the right is a big one. If you travel overseas, as someone that has been to Australia and England, trying to train yourself to walk on the other side of the sidewalk.

James Ramsay: Do they do it on the other side of the sidewalk?

Kate Hinds: They do it on the other side of the sidewalk, and it's incredibly difficult. I feel for tourists here from parts of the world where you drive on the left, it's very hard to change that orientation.

James Ramsay: Well, the other big thing about tourists, one person who wrote in, there were some very thoughtful, well, everybody was thoughtful, but there's some really thoughtful survey responses that came in. One guy named Jay, he said he's been in New York for a long time but he's a native Brazilian. He had some sympathy, especially for tourists coming here where he said New York City is really unique in the United States and even in the world in terms of being a place where a lot of pedestrians are walking to get something done. That it's not just a leisure activity, that it's people are dropping off their dry cleaning, they're getting to work, they're trying to get things.

I think that's a big reason why tried and true New Yorkers get worked up about people in their way because it's not like somebody else is doing their leisure activity the wrong way that you're doing your leisure activity. It's that you're on a mission.

Kate Hinds: Let's just lance the boil and get some of the vinegar out right now and go to the phones with some people who have some very strong opinions.

James Ramsay: Lay it on.

Kate Hinds: Let's talk to David on the Upper West Side. Hey, David, what'd you want to say? What is your pet peeve?

David: This has happened often enough that when I heard that you were doing this segment, I was like, "I got to call in on this." You're walking on the crowded sidewalk and somebody is walking faster than you. We're talking about a really crowded sidewalk. What they do is they come up on your side and then step directly in front of you making it necessary for you to basically slam on your brakes. It's the equivalent of getting cut off in traffic, it's the same thing. It's happened enough times to where I'd be like excuse you when the people do this because--

Kate Hinds: David, does it make you want to go, "Hey, I'm walking here."

David: [Laughs] No, I can't say it does because I don't think a lot-- well, only New Yorkers might get that or only people who know, what was it? Midnight Cowboy was it?

Kate Hinds: Midnight Cowboy.

David: Yes. Only--

James Ramsay: David, can I ask, when this happens to you, do you feel like you're walking along the sidewalk behaving the rules doing everything normal and right, and that someone else is just overly aggressive? It's not like you're stopping in the middle of the sidewalk to stare at your phone or something.

David: Well, I pride myself on trying to get up against a building and get out of the flow when I do want to look at my phone. I'm sorry, what was your question?

James Ramsay: My question was, if somebody cuts you off, do you feel like it's happening in a situation where you're following the rules. It's not like you're doing something wrong and they're peeved off and so get worked up at you. It's like--

David: Well, the only thing that I'm doing is walking. I'm walking a little bit slower than them. That's it. In one--

Kate Hinds: Are you slow walking on the right?

David: Oh, yes [laughs].

Kate Hinds: Just making sure.

David: Yes, I try to abide by that rule despite the many people that break it.

Kate Hinds: Many years ago I once saw a video of someone who had a little bike bell when they were a pedestrian, and then would just walk down the sidewalk ringing the bike bell to get people out of the way when they were walking fast. That could be a technique.

James Ramsay: It brings up a really good point in this, talking about sidewalk etiquette. So many of the survey responses obviously interpret etiquette as the thing the other person should just know without me saying anything, other people need to obey the rules. Here are the rules that other people need to obey. The flip side of etiquette is a little bit what David's describing as, if you're walking and somebody is in your way for whatever reason, and you don't know the reason, you might think they're staring at their phone, but maybe they are a slow walker, maybe they are having a tough time, have a disability, what is the polite way to tell someone, "Hey, please get out of my way."? Especially because even depending on the tone of your voice, even something like "Excuse me" can sound pretty gruff.

There was one woman I talked to, her name was Cynthia Blumberg for this story, and her story was that she's 34 now, during the pandemic she started to lose mobility due to a spinal issue and is now in a wheelchair. She was like, "James, I used to be the person who was hauling tail down the sidewalk thinking, 'Why can't these people just get out of my way?' and now that I'm on the flip side of it, I have a lot more sympathy for people who are slow movers for whatever reason." I said, "How would you want someone to address you in a polite way to ask you to get out of the way?"

She was like, "That's a good question. I think what I would want someone to say is, 'Hi, I'm so sorry. I really need to get around you. Could you move?'" I thought that that was a really useful thing, and I've put it into practice in my own life in terms of what's the most apologetic, soft way to say, "Hey, get out of my way."?

Kate Hinds: Well, we will talk more about apologetic, polite ways to instruct other people and correct sidewalk etiquette with James Ramsay from WNYC and Gothamist right after a quick break.

[music]

You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kate Hinds in for Alison Stewart, and right now we are talking New York City sidewalk etiquette with James Ramsay from the WNYC in Gothamist Newsroom. James has, at least in my opinion, provided the ultimate guide to defining what sidewalk etiquette is and we want you to take part in the conversation. Give us a call, text us at 212-433-9692, and let's get things started with Daniel on Central Park South. Hey, Daniel.

Daniel: Hey, how are you?

Kate Hinds: Good, how are you?

Daniel: Good. I am so glad, I have kept this to myself because it's so corny. I don't think I have a friend who would respect me if I said it out loud to New Yorkers. I love people jamming the sideways [unintelligible 00:09:56]. I live in the middle of a very touristed area. I've been here for 40 years. I live in a really distractingly complex pre-war building that everybody takes pictures of. All the time I think, "We get to live here. These people have saved up for years just to spend a couple of days where we walk every day." When they sit down and enjoy it, it reminds me of how lucky we are to be at the center of the world. I don't know what everybody's so mad about.

Kate Hinds: Daniel, I feel like you've achieved the next level of existence.

James Ramsay: Yes. You're--

Daniel: [laughs] [crosstalk] Also, I'm never in a hurry.

James Ramsay: No, I think Daniel makes a really good point. One of the things that came up in the course of doing this too is, someone had asked, "Do you think this is neighborhood-specific? Are sidewalk etiquette rules in different places?" I think yes. I also think time of day matters. Like Daniel said, he lives on Central Park South. If it's eight o'clock in the morning and people are hightailing it to Penn Station, this is the time and place to follow the rules. If it's a beautiful sunny afternoon and everyone around-- I have a three-year-old now who's infatuated with Eloise.

We went up to Central Park South to check out the Plaza Hotel around Christmas time. I would've been a total chump if I was thinking to myself, "You know what needs to happen right now is everybody to move quickly and in a straight line." It makes sense to do that because then you end up in a situation where you're the one person in a sea of 200. Everybody else is glaring up at this beautiful building and you're the one person worked up, probably means that you're the sucker.

Kate Hinds: We've got a lot of texts. I'm going to just plow through a couple of them. Stewart texted us to say, "We would never stop in the middle of the highway, we pull over, so why do tourists think it's okay to stop in the middle of the sidewalk?"

James Ramsay: There's not a Plaza Hotel in the middle of the highway, for one thing.

Kate Hinds: [laughs] "Turn down your earbuds, look up from your phone so that you can hear people say, 'Excuse me.'" I really feel this one. "My least favorite thing is when two people walk slowly side-by-side on the subway stairs. I'm a two-stairs-at-a-time person." Yes. I feel like the rules need to be especially enforced, going in and out of the subway system.

James Ramsay: Oh, yes, because the fall risk there for people not obeying the rules is heightened.

Kate Hinds: Let's take another call. This is Andrea in Manhattan. Welcome to All Of It, Andrea.

Andrea: Hi. Thanks for taking my call.

Kate Hinds: Sure.

Andrea: I have some peeves and an experience. I'll just give you the peeve and you can tell me if you want the experience. People with dogs, they really need to keep their dogs on a short leash and not string the leash across the entire sidewalk while obliviously chatting on their cell phones. I've been in lots of situations where I'm trying to walk down the street, there's a dog on one side and a handler on the other and a leash across the middle. The other thing about dogs is-- go ahead.

Kate Hinds: Stay on the line, but I wanted to ask James if you got a lot of responses about dogs.

James Ramsay: I think people complaining about the same thing that you're saying. I'm with you. I would love to know what the dog person's defense is for this.

Kate Hinds: What was your experience, Andrea?

Andrea: My experience is they're mostly not paying attention. They're literally just on their cell phones or talking to a friend or someone and just not paying attention about the fact that their dog is blocking the entire sidewalk with their leash.

Kate Hinds: I think there was an article recently. I think in New York Magazine titled something like, "Why Does Everyone Hate My Dog?" It does feel that all of a sudden we're at a moment of people really noticing how many dogs there are and wanting to talk about the behavior of the owners.

James Ramsay: Correct. I know that article, and it really focused I think on Bed-Stuy and Prospect Lefferts Gardens, certain parts of Brooklyn where it sounds like this has exploded, that there wasn't a ton of dogs, I don't know, 10 years ago, and then now all of a sudden there are. Like I said, with tourists, with dogs too. I guess if your dog needs to use the bathroom at any time of day, you got to do what you got to do, but if you live outside of Penn Station, there is a good time and a less good time to let the dog stretch across 8th Avenue.

Kate Hinds: One of the comments you got from the survey was that people agreed that when other people are walking down the sidewalk, you should stick to pairs or single file. That if you've got a group of three or more, they just take up too much space. What did you think of this?

James Ramsay: I think it's true. If you're on a busy sidewalk and you're three across, you're a hazard. My feeling is that say you're with a group of friends or you're visiting town and you're trying to get from point A to point B, you're going out to dinner, you're going to a show or you're going to a party, there's a lot to look at and take in and a good time to be had without talking to the people that you're with. Then by the time you get to wherever you're going, now you haven't run out of things to talk about because you've been yapping the whole way on your slow leisurely journey. I think that's a good one where it's important to be conscientious of the people behind you.

Kate Hinds: Right. Also, imagine if you're a visitor from out of town and you've got your family with you and you've got young children and you're in SoHo and you're looking at the cast iron buildings, you're not going to be walking single file. You are going to be in a clump.

James Ramsay: Like I had said earlier, that guy Jay from Brazil, the point that he was making was that many other places, walking in a group for a leisure purpose is common, and so I don't fault people for having that background.

Kate Hinds: We got a text that says, "It's really frustrating when two people or more are standing, not moving, having a conversation in the middle of the sidewalk, thus blocking the flow of pedestrians." I have to say, I raised my children, my daughters in Manhattan, and one of the things I used to say to them when we were out and about was situational awareness. Always maintain situational awareness and how your movement can impact or impede other people. I tried to be really thoughtful about it. What are your thoughts, James? You're raising small children.

James Ramsay: I am, and it's interesting. One of the things that maybe surprised me in the survey was how many people complained about strollers. I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old. Probably like a lot of new parents, it's not something I paid a ton attention to until all of a sudden I had kids. When were your kids stroller-age in New York City?

Kate Hinds: They're 24 and 22 now, so pre-e-bike.

James Ramsay: How would you say the role of parenting on the sidewalk has changed in the last 20 years? Do you think there's way more massive strollers now?

Kate Hinds: I don't think so. I actually feel like strollers were bigger. I feel like strollers now seem to be more aerodynamic. What I've noticed that there are more of is kids on scooters racing up and down the sidewalk, and that can make me a little edgy sometimes.

James Ramsay: Thankfully, I'm not there yet, but I may never let her get to that point.

Kate Hinds: You will. It's just a matter of time. Let's take another call. This is Van in Midwood. Hi, Van. Welcome to All Of It.

Van: Hey, thanks. I wanted to add that the caller from Central Park South, I think I like his approach. I'm legally blind, so I use a cane that I swing in front of me to detect obstacles and drop-offs. I have a helpful and a non-helpful experience. The helpful one is almost everybody actually makes way when they see the cane, which is amazing because a city full of strangers, I would think I would encounter more hostility but I rarely do. The not helpful is, hey, when people who don't actually know how to help somebody who's blind.

I wait at every intersection because I have an app on my phone that tells me if I have a walk signal. Someone who doesn't know how to help me, sometimes they'll come and stand and block my view, block the phone and my residual vision and ask me if I need help. Just FYI, if somebody is blind and waiting, don't stand in their way. Ask them if they need help.

Kate Hinds: Thank you for sharing that, Van. James, any reaction?

James Ramsay: Thank you so much for your call, and it's interesting the story you're telling and the way that people are reacting to what they can see as a visible situation for you because you have a walking stick. Like I was saying earlier, the woman that I spoke to who was in a wheelchair, which is obviously also a very visible thing, but she said that she's gained a ton of awareness and sympathy for people with other disabilities that are not visible. I think that that's an important thing to keep in mind when you see somebody who's behaving in a way or moving slowly and you don't know why, to not immediately assume that it's just somebody trying to inconvenience you. You don't know what someone's situation is.

Kate Hinds: We just have a minute left and I wanted to ask you if gender played a role in this because someone tweeted us, "Hope you're covering my favorite sidewalk game, patriarchy chicken." I've noticed that as a woman, if a group of men or even just one man is walking towards me in my pathway, it's almost like I'm the one expected to move out of the way. Did that come up?

James Ramsay: Definitely stories about women becoming pregnant and then having a different experience of how they're treated on the sidewalk or mistreated on the sidewalk. This was a big thing during the pandemic, don't jog close to people. I've had situations where, like if I'm out for a run and for whatever reason, get up on the sidewalk, noticing that it freaks people out and learning after the fact like, oh, part of the problem is that a six-foot dude is running at you and it's on me to be conscientious about how I behave.

Kate Hinds: Did anything in this whole project surprise you or make you think about how we share the sidewalks in a different way?

James Ramsay: I think it was cool to see how many people seemed unequivocally to support seniors and say that seniors have the right of way. They can move as slow as they want. They could do whatever they want, they've earned it. It's cool to be in a city where you can walk and you can get things done when you're walking even when you're 95 years old.

Kate Hinds: It's true. Thanks so much, James-

James Ramsay: Thank you, Kate.

Kate Hinds: -for sharing your reporting with us. James Ramsay is a producer in the WNYC Gothamist Newsroom. He wrote "The Definitive Guide to New York City Sidewalk Etiquette." You should check it out. It's on gothamist.com.

 

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