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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Now we're going to talk about a show in its final weeks after a long, very successful run. Sleep No More is the immersive theatrical experience inspired by Shakespeare's Macbeth. Unlike most of the city's theater offerings, the show doesn't take place in a black box theater. It doesn't take place in the round.

It takes place at the McKittrick Hotel, which is not a real hotel, but a performance space made up of six floors, each with a maze of rooms, including an infirmary, a character's bedroom, a taxidermy studio, an apothecary candy store, ballroom crypt, and of course, a room for witches to do their dark magic. Members of the audience are encouraged to explore these rooms at will and to follow actors from room to room as they play out some very dramatic scenes, not with words, but with ballet-like movements that create a surreal dream-like experience of Shakespeare's classic story of power, ambition, and murder.

It was announced that Sleep No More would be closing down production after 13 years and more than 5,000 performances with a final show set for this coming weekend. That's why we booked this segment for today, but it has been extended twice. First through February, and now through March 31st. You have a little more time to catch this longtime staple of experimental theater in New York City. We're glad to be able to tell you about it. Joining me now to talk about the show and its run is Ilana-- What? Sorry. Wait. I got your last name right now. Ilana Gilovich. Is that right?

Ilana Gilovich: Yes. Perfect.

Alison Stewart: Chief storyteller. Also joining us in studio is Jonathan Hochwald, producer of Sleep No More, and owner of Emursive Productions. He's been with the show since before its first performance. Thank you for coming in.

Jonathan Hochwald: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, have you been in the audience for Sleep No More? Maybe you've been an audience member a few times. Give us a call. Tell us about your experience. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. If you do call in, no spoilers, everybody. No spoilers, please. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Jonathan, when this project first got underway a little over 13 years ago, what do you remember about some of the initial challenges?

Jonathan Hochwald: Wow. For us, I think, thinking about staging this new art form as native New Yorkers and believing that New Yorkers would really embrace this, that once they could experience it, and jump in with both feet and figure out what it is. I think the biggest challenge was, this had been starting, in a smaller way in the UK, this development of-- We call their company Emursive.

Now that's become a catchword that's used by seemingly everyone and anyone. At the time, for us, it was like we really were committed to the idea that this would be a word-of-mouth phenomenon if it was going to work at all. We really set out with a short run in mind of six weeks. We've just continued to extend ever since and now for over 13 years. I think the biggest challenge was really believing instinctively that this would connect, and then wondering how the word of mouth would spread and if it would spread and if people would see it the same way we did, which is this just very compelling, one-of-a-kind, only-in-New-York type experience.

It's like a reason we all want to be in New York is for things like this. I think that was the biggest challenge was trying to imagine a future where people could talk about it and figure out what it is and want to be a part of it.

Alison Stewart: Two questions, Ilana. Do you say the Scottish play, or do you say the name of it when you're there?

Ilana Gilovich: It's funny. I tend to say the name of the play. I know that there's so much lore and so much superstition around saying the term Macbeth, but one of the things that I love so much about Sleep No More specifically as a Shakespeare adaptation is it is this very singular hybrid between all of these different art forms. Mostly when you're thinking about the suspicions around the Scottish play, they're in very traditional proscenium theaters, but we're talking about the idiom of contemporary dance, we're talking about this strange tapestry of artists, thinkers, dreamers, musicians, dancers, and so a lot of them don't come with the knowledge of that particular superstition. We're very brazen and bold at the McKittrick. We say the title name all the time.

Alison Stewart: Jonathan, this is what's known as promenade theater. Would you explain what that term is?

Jonathan Hochwald: That's a term that sometimes used. It basically means that the audience is free to roam. The audience arrives, they're allowed into the space, and they follow whatever interests them. It's, in a sense, a world that we've tried to create where, almost like in a dream, you follow what interests you and piece things together. The more you come, the more you discover.

You can come, and some have, hundreds of times and still not see everything. There's so many things happening simultaneously in this enormous warehouse space. The audience is not seated. They're free to roam. I would say that's the main characteristic of promenade. This is really site-specific and immersive, where you're really just in the world in this dream following your instincts really and piecing together this incredible story.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Alexander, who's seen the show twice. Alexander, you're on the air.

Alexander: Thanks. I just have to say this quick because I have to get back to work. I love the show. I saw it many years ago. The first time I went, I was right up front trying to follow as much of the action as possible. The second time I decided to hang back and watch the interacting action of the audience participate and watch the show. It was both very wonderful experiences. I went with a group of friends both times. We've got separated. That is the best way I can recommend going is just, with a group of people, go your own route, connect at the end, have a drink, and tell your tales. Thank you.

Jonathan Hochwald: I love that.

Alison Stewart: Get back to work, Alexander. Thank you for taking a moment. My guests are Ilana Gilovich, as well as Jonathan Hochwald. We are talking about Sleep No More. What is your job as chief storyteller? I know you've worn a number of hats. You've been a performer. You've been a copywriter. What does chief storyteller mean?

Ilana Gilovich: Yes. It is a very fun, whimsical title that I have been bestowed, which is wonderful. I have been with the show since 2012, both as a performer and in a number of different departments. I also earned my master's degree and my PhD in English literature, specifically specializing in contemporary adaptations of Shakespeare. I've thought a lot about this production as a modern retelling of Macbeth.

In coming back to this production company with that wealth of experience, it has felt so wonderful to think about audience experience from the very beginning that they enter our space until they leave the show, and having this lingering sensation. Really, as a storyteller, particularly in a production without words, we're trying to think about how to scaffold information, how to provide a lot of structure, and just enough so that people can have freedom to roam and still retain that sense of mystery.

Alison Stewart: The way you distinguish between the actors and your fellow audience members is that the audience is all wearing uniform masquerade masks. How was that production choice designed?

Jonathan Hochwald: The creator and director of the show, Felix Barrett and Maxine Doyle, I'm sure there is a huge origin story of how that came about. I think once it was discovered the power of that because it cuts off a little bit of your peripheral vision. It allows you to be a bit anonymous and gives you agency really to explore all the spaces and feel like you can get close to performers and really absorb the story in a different way. It's really unique, but it came with the original conception of the show.

Ilana Gilovich: I also think we've invoked one aspect of the show, which is Macbeth, but the McKittrick Hotel is a 1930s-era kind of Hitchcockian film noir setting. A lot of it calls upon these filmic and cinematic legacies. Part of the beauty of the mask is it's letting an audience member be a camera and look out from behind their eyes, but it also is meant to represent the divide between the proscenium. When you're in a traditional theater, the audience are in their seats, the performers are on stage, and the mask acts as that fourth wall to distinguish between audience member and performers.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Christina from Staten Island. Hi, Christina. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Christina: I'm so thrilled you have that moment. Oh my God, the memories. I saw it just before COVID, and I'm glad you said it's going to be a little longer. You almost forget about these things. I'm definitely going back. The concept, oh my God, we loved it, loved it, loved it. Bob, my husband, went into a different route than I did. Then getting back later together was just amazing. Just talking and listening to you, the two, it all came back.

The shops, the bedroom, all the dance performances.

It was just very compelling, the whole thing, very memorable. Of course, the setting makes it just incredible. The wearing of the masks, at first, you think, oh my God, what is this? It is very compelling, looking around at everyone else wearing the masks around the performances. You're like, "Yes, it's spooky. It's eerie, but very interesting." Anyway, loved it. Loved it. Congrats. I can't believe 13 years. Wow.

[laughter]

Jonathan Hochwald: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Christina, thank you for calling in. We are talking about Sleep No More in its final weeks. There's still time to catch it at the McKittrick Hotel. My guests are Jonathan Hochwald, producer Sleep No More and owner of the McKittrick Hotel, where the show is set, and Ilana Gilovich, chief storyteller for Emursive Productions. Oh, by the way, if you want to join us, if you've seen the show, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, you can text in your experience, or you can join us on air.

Jonathan, I have to imagine casting the show must be a little bit challenging because there's a-- what skill set were you all looking for? What do performers need to have to be successful in Sleep No More?

Jonathan Hochwald: Ilana, do you want to answer that one more because you were directly in it? Obviously, there's some very specific actually and some general skills, but go ahead.

Ilana Gilovich: One of my favorite aspects of Sleep No More is we're striving for as lifelike an experience as possible. We don't want people to attend the production and say, "I want to tell you about what I saw last night." We want to say, "This is what happened to me last night." It engenders this very participatory postmortem with friends and family. We're really thinking about virtuosic dancers and actors who can then pare down to very lifelike pedestrian movements. That's a strange paradox. That's a very strange skill set to be able to wield.

In auditions, you're thinking about people who both have incredible talent, but also the awareness and the sensibility to really tell a very simplistic story and let this gargantuan, really meticulously designed set also speak for itself. It's having the humility and the restraint to be really dedicated to your craft, but also tell a very simple, direct archetypal story.

Alison Stewart: Jonathan, we have an interesting question here. Is this a piece of performance art that I see before my eyes?

Jonathan Hochwald: That I see before me. It's definitely a work of art that requires an enormous amount of people and effort and passion and energy to create each and every night. As such, I think the power of live entertainment is that ephemeral nature. That it's something that you can only experience that night live. It's not something that you can go watch on a rerun type of thing. It's really you're impacted each time you go, and you can be impacted very differently on follow-up visits.

It's very, very unusual in that way, and that it's an organic living breathing masterpiece, I think, of theatrical art that you're actually in as an audience member and able to experience in a countless myriad number of ways. I think that's been a big part of why it's connected and really touched the nerve here in New York.

Alison Stewart: Michael from Brooklyn has texted, "You have to see it more than once because you can't take it all in the first time. Leave room to plan your second visit when choosing your first, and wear comfortable shoes." [laughter] Actually, what are a few things people should know if they decide to take on an evening at Sleep No More?

Ilana Gilovich: I think trusting yourself. We have such scant experiences nowadays to be off of our phones, present, embodied, really in the moment. This is such a glorious opportunity to really check in with yourself and honor your instincts. There are some people who love rifling through the set. Each room is different temperature, different scent, different soundscape, and so some people really love just interfacing with the environment. Other people really want more aspects of the story, and so they will follow a performer. I would say take this wonderful opportunity to sense where you inherently want to go, and follow those instincts as best you can.

Alison Stewart: Got a great text, "I've been to Sleep No More three times. I wonder if the producers know how inspiring it's been to my field; museums. I've gone with several museum colleagues, and we've always left mind blown and inspired about what is possible with immersive design. Even in museums of art and history, its influence will be lasting." That's from Michelle in New Jersey.

Jonathan Hochwald: Oh, how great.

Alison Stewart: This is a hard question. Why is it closing?

Jonathan Hochwald: As I was saying before about live entertainment and live theater and this art form in particular, it's always bittersweet in a way that it has a beginning, a middle, and an end, whether it's a great book that you've read or a great TV series that you're watching, at some point to finish up at the right time and to finish up strong and to essentially be able to hopefully have it out there long enough for as many people as possible to have experienced it and seen it and have that in their memories.

I think it's just really important that, unlike a typical theater show, which oftentimes will announce on a Wednesday they're closing on a Sunday or even announce that we're closing that night, to be able to manage this last phase of this chapter of this book, I think, was really important to us, and to end in a place where we were going out on top with the best cast and the best experience and, hopefully, want people to come back someday in the distant future with something else.

Alison Stewart: In the right time, in the right way. Sleep No More, you have until March-

Jonathan Hochwald: 28th.

Alison Stewart: -28th to see Sleep No More. My guests have been Jonathan Hochwald and Ilana Gilovich. Thank you so much for coming to the studio, and have a great final few weeks.

Ilana Gilovich: Thank you.

Jonathan Hochwald: Thank you so much for having us.

Alison Stewart: There's more All of It on the way. I'll meet you right back here after the news.

 

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