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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. We are deep into award season. The Oscars are on March 12th, but before then, we still have the PGAs and the NAACP Image Awards, both this Saturday, as well as the SAG awards on Sunday. The Film Independent Spirit Award is on March 4th and several other ceremonies. If you want to be an informed awards show watcher, you can check out our podcast feed.

We've had conversations with a lot of the nominees for all of these awards. You can find our interview with Chinonye Chukwu, director of Till, which is nominated for Outstanding Motion Picture and Outstanding Ensemble at the NAACP Image Awards this weekend. Also nominated is Breaking for Outstanding Independent Motion Picture. You can listen to our interview with star John Boyega and director Abi Damaris Corbin.

Looking ahead to the Independent Spirit Awards, there's our conversation with Director Sarah Polley and star Jessie Buckley for Women Talking, nominated for Best Feature. Polley is also nominated for Best Director. Mia Goth, who joined us to talk about her horror double feature, Pearl and X, is nominated for Best Lead Performance. In the documentaries, you can check out our segments on All That Breathes and All The Beauty And The Bloodshed.

Not to mention the BAFTAs were this past weekend. While we haven't talked to Angela Bassett about doing the thing, yet, you can find our interview with Banshees of Inisherin director, Martin McDonagh, who won BAFTAs for Screenplay and Best British Film. Plus, Tár star and Aoi guest, Cate Blanchett scored a BAFTA too.

Now, we wanted to take some time to revisit our conversation about the movie, The Inspection, nominated for three Independent Spirit Awards, including for Best Feature Film, Gabrielle Union for Best Supporting Actress, and Jeremy Pope is also nominated for Best Lead Performance at the Indie Spirit Awards. The film is set in 2005 when the military had a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. Stars Pope is a 25-year-old Black, gay, homeless man who enlists in the Marines and endures basic training that is grueling and cruel, as well as dangerously bigoted when his sexual orientation becomes clear.

The story was informed by writer and director Elegance Bratton's own experiences. He joined the US Marine Corps in his mid-20s after spending a decade living on the streets. His mother had thrown him out for being gay at 16. Jeremy Pope and Elegance Bratton joined me to talk about the film, and I started the conversation by asking Elegance what made him want to join the Marines, and how much his own thinking went into the decision by the movie's lead character.

Elegance Bratton: For me, joining the Marine Corps came down to a moment of survival in my life. I was kicked out of my house when I was 16 for being gay, and I stayed homeless for the next 10 years. By the time I arrived at the Marine Corps doorstep, I felt pretty much worthless like my life had no value. It wasn't as if I didn't try to do a bunch of other things to have access to this society. I was met with ostracism and rejection.

I had a drill instructor who fortunately told me that my life had value, meaning, and purpose because I had a responsibility to protect the Marine to my left and to my right, and I ran with that. I held onto it, and used that to get right to this moment right now. This movie is totally inspired by that, a person like myself who would do anything to win their parents' validation, even go into the most hostile territory if it means that they can get their parents' love. A young, homeless, Black gay man trying to win his mom's heart.

Alison Stewart: Jeremy, what was your initial response when you read the script?

Jeremy Pope: I loved the script. The words were on the page, but I loved Elegance. I was fortunate to hop on a Zoom with him right after and connect. We share creative minds. We talked about what it means to be Black artists, Black queer men in this business. Ultimately, this job for me was a job of service. Community and tribe is everything, specifically in marginalized, and specifically in the LGBTQIA community, so I wanted to be a support. I wanted to protect him as he made his first film, as he was putting himself first.

These things, when you give so much of your personal life away in this way, you can't get it back, so I wanted to be the person that they meet before they have anything to say about Elegance, because I cared for him. I cared for this story. I knew what this story meant. The representation of following a Black queer man to his journey of self-love and self-identity and self-worth is so important and would've been so necessary for me as I've become the artist that I am, so I knew the importance of this story.

I knew the importance of protecting Elegance and making sure he felt like he had enough in the room, onscreen, and offscreen to be of service, and to ultimately be a vessel for something bigger than just his story and his trauma and his pain and his love.

Alison Stewart: Jeremy, what questions did you have for yourself, and maybe even for Elegance, before committing to a role like this? Because this, ugh, it's such an intense role. It's a physically and mentally demanding role. That's a commitment for this project.

Jeremy Pope: Yes, it is. I want to keep it real. When you're making Indie films, you really have to love the art and the people you're working with. We shot this movie in 19 days, which is very ambitious in the middle of Jackson, Mississippi, in the middle of the summer, 117-degree weather. While I thought I was prepared emotionally for what this film is going to require for me, I wasn't quite prepared for the physical aspect of it, so that was challenging.

Ultimately, I had to ask Elegance very early on, I said, "Do you trust me, and will you trust me?" Because I feel very vulnerable, and I know you feel very vulnerable, and you're my writer, you're my director, and you're the source of everything, so there has to be a trust because I have to feel used and I have to be used. I have to use what I know and what I felt being a Black queer man and existing in my space to bring this character to fruition and to make it feel accessible to our audience.

He didn't fight me one bit, and that's where our love language and our dynamic between actor, writer, producer, creator, and me being the vessel of him. That's where that lied, in that trust, because I didn't have to explain myself in a room. This was one of the first times where I had a Black man opposite directing me and guiding me. There's just certain conversations that you just don't have to have because they get it and they know. You know what I mean? You don't have to over-explain. It's like, "I get you. Yes and amen. Moving on." You know what I mean?

That was such a blessing, and it became about protecting that in the 19 days that we had to make this very special and necessary film.

Alison Stewart: Elegance, what was this screenwriting process like, and how did you protect you, because you had to revisit a lot of difficult things in the making of this film?

Elegance Bratton: Well, I'm still figuring out how to protect myself, to be honest with you. This is a lifelong process in terms of how I've grown up and how I've gotten to this moment. In actuality, what I can say is that this film is not a simple process of recollection, but also about the essence of emotional truth. I had to look at the events that I went through in my life, and I had to understand, "What did I learn from those events? What did they teach me?" and, "How did I get here?" because I think that's where the universal lies, and the specificity of my life can become something that's of value to someone else.

When it comes down to it, I was really just trying to keep track of what was emotionally true. The movie is 100% autobiographical when it comes to trenches, hopes, fears, and motivations, our lead characters. When it comes down to it, even if it's something that I haven't been through myself, those are fears that I have, those are desires that I had. When it comes to his mother and him, all of that is out of my life, and that I'm still processing.

Alison Stewart: My guests are filmmaker Elegance Bratton and actor Jeremy Pope. We're talking about their film, The Inspection. It is now in theaters. Jeremy, early on we see French is in very difficult circumstances yet there's still some light in him. There's some light in him. There's some sense of there has to be hope. If he's enlisting in the Marines, there's something that makes him think, "I could have a future in some way," or, "I at least want to pursue having a future, even if it's through these difficult circumstances." When you were performing this piece, and also in your conversation with Elegance, what is motivating him to think about the possibility of the future?

Jeremy Pope: Right. I think that for me in building French, that is just the optimistic heart and love is, Elegance. That was who I met on that Zoom that I mentioned. That was the energy I was met with. I think Elegance has a faith in seeing things that aren't there yet, that the world hasn't seen for him yet. That's how we're in this position, and that's why we're on this conversation right now, because Elegance somewhere deep down, there was a seed planted that he should just keep trying and not give up on himself. Every step got him closer to him walking in his purpose into this moment.

We talk about the mother being the North Star at the beginning of this film, being like she is the reason why he goes to the service and joins boot camp, and is willing to endure whatever. In that, he learns so much about himself, and self-worth, and strength, and identity, and how he's always been equipped with all of the things. I think I speak that on Elegance. He's always been equipped with this heart and this ability to see, and to create, and to believe, which is so necessary as an artist.

It was so important for Elegance while French is in this broken position and doesn't have many resources or opportunities, but there is still that spark and that light, because he's always had that, and that's always been built in just who he is and what he is. It was important to keep that, to keep that sense of glimmer and then watch these institutions and people who wanted to bring that down, who want to find the one thing that you are sure of and remind you of it being not worth anything. Ultimately, we see him rise. We see him become the hero of his own story.

Then what we watch in our film is the other people that maybe aren't identifying in specific ways that are similar to French, but how they are broken and how they are trying to reach this impossible task of what these institutions think men should be, and French should be, and opportunity should be. I think that's human. I think that our film explores the humanity in and of that.

Alison Stewart: Elegance, early on in the film we're introduced to French's mother, Inez, played by Gabrielle Union, and she has chosen to reject her son. She is such an interesting choice because she's the opposite kind of mom. She and her husband, Dwyane Wade, they have been so supportive of their trans-daughter, Zaya. How did she get involved in the project, and what layer does she bring to the story?

Elegance Bratton: Well, it all starts from my homelessness. [chuckles] Right, my mom. Eventually, after 10 years, I joined the Marine Corps, and that's where I became a filmmaker. I was a combat filmmaker for five years for the Marines. Then I got re-stationed from Hawaii into New York, and my mother invited me to film my little sister's elementary school graduation.

While I was there, I showed up. I bought a camera. I bought a computer. Did everything I could, and I get there and I realize my sister's friends don't know that my sister has a brother, or that my mother has an elder son at all. No one knew that I existed. I realized that I had spent all of this time trying to change myself to win them, but they weren't interested in changing themselves to win me back, and that was very painful. That's when I resolved to be a filmmaker. In my mind, it's like, "You're not going to ignore me. You're not going to erase me. You're going to see me in the world, and people are going to ask if we belong to one another."

Casting Gabrielle Union, [chuckles] it's also strategic. I'm trying to reach somebody. I know that if Gabrielle Union plays my mom, nobody's going to ignore her, right? Unfortunately, my mom was killed about three days after the movie got green-lit. The goal that I had of reaching her was no more, and I have to say that I'm incredibly grateful to Gabrielle Union for helping to bring my mother back to life because she offered me, through this film, a sense of the closure that my mother could never provide, unfortunately.

My mom was an orphan at the age of 10. You can't give someone something that you haven't been given. No one ever gave my mom unconditional love that I needed from her. Nonetheless, this is the first person to have ever loved me completely. She's also the first person to have rejected me wholy. For me, this film is about reaching out to people like my mom and having this incredible artist and superstar like Gabrielle Union.

She wore my mother's jewelry in this. She used my mother's Bible in this. She's styled just like her. Although it's not enough, none of these characters, Inez or French or any character in here is fully the person, because they can't be, but these actors opened themselves up to a process to where I was able to see the truth in what they were performing. Gabby, she just really opened up her heart and her soul and her spirit to make space for my mom, and I'm just forever grateful for that.

Alison Stewart: That's so interesting about the jewelry and the Bible. There's a detail. She's smoking a cigarette and she has bright red nails, and I thought--

Elegance Bratton: Yes, that's my mom. [laughs] That's my mom. My mom was a hot girl on her block. She was fly. She was fresh. She was the bee girl. That's how she rolled. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen to a clip from the film. This is when French has shown up at home and said to his mother he needs his birth certificate because he's going to enroll in the Marines. She is not supportive, but she does have a message she wants to give him. Let's take a listen. This is from The Inspection.

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Inez French: This little piece of paper, that's all I have left of the dream I held for you. If you don't come back the son I gave birth to, consider this certificate void.

Alison Stewart: That is from the film, The Inspection. Jeremy, even though Inez is not in the film in terms of real estate a lot, her presence is felt throughout the film and throughout for French, his training, and his time in basic training. How does the relationship with his mom ultimately affect him during the basic training, and how does it in some way-- Well, I don't know what to say-- How does it affect him in the basic training?

Jeremy Pope: I speak about her and the relationship being the North Star for him in this film. It starts off that way, and it's his way into this arena going to the boot camp. In his mind, that's his why. I think being away from her and not having connections, she's not responding to letters. It's just him in this institution, and it becomes about survival. He then has to look inward and have to find these things within himself because his mother isn't there. Then he goes on this journey of self-evolution, self-worth, self-examination, self-identity in order to survive.

I think just from a personal place, I've spent so many years trying to shapeshift myself to be a version of myself that people wanted me to be. A lot of that time, that didn't align with me stepping into my purpose and who I actually am. What that meant for me was I would have to abandon some of those blood family members in order for me to continue walking in my purpose and knowing what I know to be true about myself. That's very complex and very hard because these are adults and people who are supposed to be guiding you and loving you and teaching you.

A lot of the things they say about you and to you, you believe and you take as true. When you learn that we're all human and we all make mistakes, and sometimes people are guiding you in the wrong direction whether they know it or not, or what they're feeling or what they're projecting onto you has more to do with who they are and the journey and the work they need to do, then it does-- Your heart and your truth, I think that is the realization of French in our film.

While we get to the end of our film and he says to his mother, "When you're ready, I'll be here," because he realizes it was never me that was the problem. It was never me not being enough or me. It speaks more to where you are on your journey of seeing the world and its fullness, and seeing me and my fullness. You know what I mean?

I think Elegance has explained he spent a lot of his year, has a complex relationship with his mother, wrestling with that idea of, "How can we love each other? Do we love each other? Is it conditional? Do we only love each other in conditions, or is there a space for us to find each other and love each other in the unconditional to go, 'We may agree to disagree, but I love you, and this is how I love you, the evolved version of who and what you are.'"

I think it's such a honest and real journey because me, Black, queer, identifying, open, proud, spent many years of getting to that place of just existing and being happy and grounded in that. It took a lot of these complex relationships and losing and fighting and believing in myself to get to this, "Oh, I am okay, and I'm going to be okay because I said so," and I'm going to work to continue to follow that direction of learning about myself and unlearning the things that have been taught and brought upon me that don't serve me and don't serve my freedom in this life.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the film, The Inspection. Okay. Elegance, I'm going to ask is you're a filmmaker. Your movie gets the green light. You know you're going to make it. You're in the director's chair. What is something that you always knew you wanted to do in a film that you got to do in this film? You were just waiting.

Elegance Bratton: Oh, man. I'm a fan of movies my whole life, and I'm really a big-time fan of actors. I love actors. They are my special friends in the world. There's a scene where like when you watch the movie where they're on rifle range-- I've always wanted to direct like an argument that turns into a fight. We didn't go full fight because it's boot camp. You can't ever go full fight.

Nonetheless, the argument builds in a series of cuts and swish pans and follows, right? Something similar to what you would see in a movie like Jarhead. Nonetheless, I always wanted to do it. I remember on set, I really felt like I was doing it. I talked to Jeremy. We had our little huddle. I like to give my actors notes in a huddle. I don't like to say it too loud. I walked away I'm like, "Yes, I can direct a movie. I know what I'm doing."

Then as I'm walking back to the director, to the video village, my chair, I hear, "Hey, Elegance. Hey, Elegance. Hey, Elegance." I turn around and it's like it's an ensemble, so the other 10 actors have their hands up and I'm like, "Oh, man, I've got to have this moment of clarity with everybody for this scene to work." Then I had that moment with each actor. I felt like, "Okay. I can do this. I got it. Sure. Why not?" Then as I'm going back to the video village, the cinematographer has their hands up, and the costume designer and everybody. I'm like, "Oh, wait a second."

Everybody, all 150 of the crew, Jeremy, all the supporting casts, everybody has to be on the same page, so it was a moment where I got to do what I wanted to do. I always dreamt of being in that situation with great actors who are on their toes, but I also learned a lot about what it takes to do that scene. It's a great education, and it was a wonderful moment for me I'll never forget.

Alison Stewart: Jeremy, what's a piece of direction that Elegance gave you which was really, really useful, and you may actually take forward in your career?

Jeremy Pope: I think the thing that Elegance affirmed me was a lot of the times the way that we worked would be that we would have very lengthy conversations about the scene and make sure that everything was in the pot, that I understood feelings and tensions, what lines were there, were there lines that needed to be cut just to understand the motivations. I'm always trying to search for what's not on the page so we would just do that work.

Then after we would do that, spend time rehearsing it, we would film it. Then oftentimes, Elegance would be like, "Great. Moving on." It would be like a one take thing. As an actor, you can sometimes get in your head and feel like I need more times, or I want to feel like I was doing, or this isn't that, but he affirmed me that my instincts are mostly right when we do that preparation and work. I was very grateful to be with a director who trusted me.

Once that happens once, you start to lean into that, and to know what you're capable of, and the abilities that you have as an artist, as an actor. I'm very grateful for that sense of direction of not allowing me to overthink what I know to be true, and what he saw, and what he witnessed as being vulnerable, and being honest, and being thrown into an environment that feels unsure in that shaky ground. He allowed me to find a nuance in that.

To have a director again, it can feel very tricky to have a director who it's based on his life, who's writing it. There's a lot that could go wrong, but I think in our case everything went right. Everything went right, so I felt safe, and I felt taken care of as an artist and actor to try, and to use that one take or that two takes to put it all and to leave it there and to know he was going to capture it, he was going to get it right, and that he wouldn't lead me in those dark places for too long. You know what I mean?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jeremy Pope: That I could be used, throw it all there, cry it all out, whatever I needed to do to get there, but that we would then be able to protect it and leave it alone and move on.

Alison Stewart: That was some of my conversation with Jeremy Pope and Elegance Bratton about the film, The Inspection, which is nominated at this Saturday's NAACP Image Awards for Outstanding Independent Motion Picture. It's also nominated for three film Independent Spirit Awards, including for Best First Feature, and Jeremy Pope nominated for Best Lead Performance.

 

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