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Welcome to another a black man in America presented by your city station in cooperation with the city's commission on human rights of these programs are broadcast Tuesday afternoons at five on W N Y C I am ninety three point nine mega cycles on Tuesday evenings at nine am on W. N.Y.C. eight hundred thirty killed cycles here and I'll to tell you more about this important series is our moderator Good evening this is what you made both and I'm here to bring you another in the series the black man in America devoted as the title states to examine the history and life of Afro Americans and the contributions they have made and are making to the material cultural and spiritual wealth of this country this includes all of living not simply the civil rights issues we see in the headlines it is clear that America as it now exists must be destroyed it is impossible to live within this country and not become a thief or a murderer to those who fearfully wonder if America has come to the point of a race war the answer is not certain however all signs would seem to say yes these are some of the foreboding concluding lines and Julius Lester's book look out of Whitey black power is going to get your mama published by Dial Press in June of this year nine hundred sixty eight the book is a strong indictment against white America's treatment of the Negro the structure of American society itself and an angry bitter fiery interpretation of the origin meaning tactics and implications of black power the author Our guest this evening is currently a field secretary for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee whose background is quite very. Mr Leicester's articles and photographs have appeared in broadside where he is contributing editor The Village Voice escapade The New York free press and sing out he also writes a weekly column of political analysis for the Guardian and a monthly column for the movement he has coauthored with Pete Seeger the twelve string guitars played by Lead Belly and his poetry has been published in various anthologies He's also an accomplished musician and has recorded two albums original and Afro-American for additional songs Let me just state again those concluding lines in Julius left his book look out Whitey black power is going to get your mama it is clear that America as it now exists must be destroyed it is impossible to live within this country and not become a thief or a murderer to those who fearfully wonder if America has come to the point of a race war the answer is not certain however all signs would seem to say yes just less to have we come to that point of a race war where. I still say it's not certain more pessimistic about it now than I was when I wrote there a year ago particularly around the New York school strike situation you're more pessimistic today right than you were when you wrote it right and then you say that America must be destroyed why is it that it must be destroyed as it now exists well because I think that America is built upon certain principles of inhumanity the basic one be the inequity of. Income that exists in the country that it set up that way you are going to be rich and poor people you believe in socialism and. Know what name I'll put to it you know socialism communalism but I believe in a system whereby. It would not be possible for people to be hungry etc. You state in your book that the term Black Power is new but the concept is old when did it first emerge and how has the concept evolved Well I would say that the concept have been with black people since black people have been here in terms of literature I would think that. They have a walker's appeal to call America eighteen twenty nine states on the very same principles that. Radical blacks are talking about today and I think that it has. That it manifested itself in the black abolitionists of the eighteenth fifty's with people like Martin the line who had strong feelings of. Wanting to be separate from black America feeling that black Americans were different there was a separate black culture and that this was positive and they wanted to not only preserve this but to carry it on a dynamic fashion and I think that in each period there has been some manifestation of live power and the thought of come to a. A head so to speak you know in one nine hundred sixty six when snow began articulating it and began to. Trying to give a more broad based articulation to account with a comprehensive program that was after the Americas March Mr Wright right when it first gained some prominence in the press gave it prominence at that time during that march now of course we've had on these microphones also Mr Floyd barber who has written the black power revolt in which he speaks of a letter from Benjamin Banneker way back and seventeen sixty nine I believe it was or somewhere around there in which he Benjamin Banneker told Thomas Jefferson about the concept of black power without using those exact words and Dr Du Bois has used it in his books also in one hundred three but it is not new the concept is old but those two words being put together in that fashion is new I suppose well now Richard Wright did a book called Black Power that was called like power that came out in the mid fifty's a book on Gonna What does the title of your book mean I think this kind of excites people look out Whitey black power is going to get your mama isn't it true that once upon a time Whitey used to be concerned about black power getting his sister wealthy I mean that the child mean several things number one thing to black people it means the dozens you know which is that game where we talk about each other's mom and so on the first level I'm playing the dozens on the second level I'm just saying that. That mother is a symbol for everything that's basic and I'm saying the blue flower is gone to get everything with this country considers basic whatever is basic to this country today right is not relevant to what's going on around it right. What made you and others began disenchanted with nonviolence and integration his goals because you were one of those who was a nonviolent. Person who believed in nonviolence you believed in integration and you've changed well I mean I never believed. I mean that's not true about me personally Yes You know I was involved in an snake but not doing the Phase one snake was involved in nonviolence I don't think there's really anything such as I said this Examiner You know if there was a chance make a name because it became very clear that white America was not responding positively to the approach and was not responding positively to the legitimate demands of black people that are OK You know you march you pray you petition you demonstrate you do all of these and you get beat up you get down in jail that life people in Mississippi are going as into a political party once a Democratic convention say we're not represented with anybody with common sense knows life even the city aren't represented and Democratic parties offer to compromise and the Constitution very clearly states one man one vote equal representation exciter just shot aside for political reasons so it became very very clear you know at that point and I think sixty four is a very important point Democratic Convention that nothing was happening. One hundred sixty five what happened and all of a sudden poverty programs all of a sudden people were noticing black people by people got in the street and saw a stone throwing a few bricks. Then all of a sudden the country was upset and so you know if the problem could be solved by gone to the White House a drink and some tea and saying Hey man this is President saying what you write you know we don't fix that up fine but it hasn't happened and it wasn't until my people got into the streets and started you know called white folks name and threaten white people that even some consciousness that blacks had a grievance came about you know in two hundred million of white Americans and that in spite of the fact that sea damage that occurred in those disturbances really harmed black people more than the harm black white you know I mean one interesting thing about that one thing about this country is that they've created this whole scare you know more black people have been killed over the years and white people black people have not gone out on mass to kill white people that they've been their destruction is the name that property and not of white people but nonetheless this is been used to say that you know that we're trying to create a race war now we have certain economic grievances that we want you know taken care of but the ad that is been using mom and I are going to White Nationalism and I think the players example that was the sixty eight election campaign. And I mean they talked about lawn although they didn't talk about justice and they didn't mean really law and order either they meant nigger control to put it bluntly that's what they meant because Law and Order would mean enforcement of all laws for the benefit of all of people and not just what they're talking about the criminal law against a black person and there was a very long and Democratic convention I was amazed no talk of racism no talk of just simple justice which is all that we're talking about and Chicago certainly has been indicted by the recent report that of the National Commission on violence some as I think it's very clear that if we can't get justice through the means that the system is set up for redress of grievances then we get justice by whatever way we can but now when you talk about whatever way you can many people would assume that this means riots this means rebellion and actually riots have been accomplished by white people more often in the history of this country than by black people I mean the eight hundred sixty three draft act riots in New York City were the worst of all people ought to read about in Ryan USA by one of heat but you mean whichever way it has to be is the way that will be and that means that there's got to be an economic turnover or political turnover whatever has to be must be you know I mean I feel their their their. You know there have to be an economic driver people say that we've got a revolution here that there is a black revolution do you see evidence of this well you see I would define revolution ver broadly as being battle for the minds of people. So I see a revolution in terms of the new consciousness but not because no I mean there's no I mean you know when you have a revolution then you and I would be sitting here talking about it they come in here drive me out and shoot me you know saw me very clearly there's no real revolution in the sense we see revolutions in the world you state that the world of the black American is different from that of the white american What are those differences between beyond those that are commonly known what you are commonly know well commonly it's known that the black American has not been afforded all his rights as prescribed by the Fourteenth Amendment for example I think Chief Justice Earl Warren just laid out a couple months ago that the promise of the fourteen The man has not been realized by the black American but beyond that. I think I think that there are there is a basic cultural difference which I think accounts for some of the conflict between white and black Americans. That black America view life differently that we have a culture which to my mind is. Hoc and how can I describe it is as well I can only have to describe it in vague sort of terms that to my mind is is connected in with certain life forces that I would call in that there's a. Lot of evil you know in the black community and I think there's exemplified say in the way that a black person walks down the street in the colors that he wear is definitely exemplified in the music was exemplified in the speech and I think these things are very definitely have a roots in Africa and I think that one of the things which which would you know white America is on the stand about black Americans is is culture and it's a point of conflict you know between the two We're talking with Julius Lester author of the book look out why a black power is going to get your mom. Julius Laster what makes as you quote the white consciousness so imperishable ie racist and quote. An honest to sixty four thousand dollar questions I mean my friends you know white people are genetically races I'll say that but why it seems to be so imperishable you know I guess well let me back in what was it sixty sixty one James Baldwin wrote a book called A fine next time and in that book he said that for whites to change their attitudes toward blacks they had to change their attitudes toward themselves and he raised the question as to whether or not this were possible and I think that that whites resist changing their attitude toward blacks because it would mean giving up a lot of the principles which they've grown up with giving up a lot of the things which they believe in and they would have to view themselves differently and they would have to to a degree condemn themselves for what they have been before they could recreate themselves a newbie a look at black people or the white man the white man always says look I'm not racist my system the system on which I've been able to prosper and flower and maybe is racist based upon racist beginnings but I like my black neighbors when you say that Well see I say very simple it out to the races as the George Wallace has a clue guys plan to go out and organize as and who are not the passive can the guy who does nothing and I say that if a man is not fighting against racism then therefore you know he is contributing you wouldn't say that polygraphing is a racist then you know even though he's white no I mean I don't you know I don't say that all white people are races What are your objections though to the philosophy of people like Roy Wilkins Whitney Young the late member Martin Luther King. Well my objections would be simply and there I do not think there's any salvation for black people underneath the system I think that actually by people who have reached a point where they are becoming. Obsolete underneath a system that the system is getting to the point where doesn't need black people and I don't think that the system have jobs available and far black people and. If black people contain to be rebellious then I think the country you know would if it was necessary move to what was called euphemistically a final solution What's your view of black leaders such as Stokely Carmichael and a trap Brown Well I mean you know having been in the same are going to the nation with both on them my attitude is very positive course I mean I think that they have been. To. The major articulators of the new black consciousness and have raised the political consciousness of like people tremendously when you say their major articulators I think you're hitting the nail on the head because most people say that Stokeley Carmichael in a trap around while they articulating do not have people following them is that true where that's I mean I don't think that's true at all I mean our case so that you know snake can point to you know five million membership in all of this but you go out on the street you talk to any black person some of the things he's gone to be saying you know came from other Stokely around Can there ever been truly unity among Americans black and white or do you advocate separatism. That's something I'm wrestling with and you know I just don't know whether it's possible you know for black and white Americans to live together I mean that that depends on white people because black people have triad large nose we've trad you know I mean blind people have never on mass struck back at whites for what's been done and they've always said OK we keep cool you know we want to straighten this thing up black people are amazing in this and that it's up to white people because I think black people are still willing to live and let live you know I mean that's a basic black attitude you know OK you do your thing I'll do man you know and we leave each other alone but whites you know like white man sees a black man go on on a street with a white woman he got to have something to say about it he got a thought Brygada car do something about it not his business that's between them to people they want to that's between him off the white people you know and from what I'm saying white people are going continue being white people from what you see you know you don't see anything in the progress that has been made politically for example the fact that Thurgood Marshall in the Supreme Court the fact that Harl Stokes's mayor of Cleveland and so forth down the line calling the arsons Come on come on in Mississippi like you are come on not I'm talking about the mass of people Thurgood Marshall and put no public jobs and nobody's icebox you know I mean that that did Thurgood Marshall a lot of good but Thurgood Marshall sent Eldridge Cleaver back to jail you know so he'd know I mean no no he was following the law and as the last thing I mean he was put into a trick they. You know I mean if he is saying elders cleavers that you know should not go back to jail the country being on the road now I mean the fact that people are still living in abject poverty people are still living in hobbles of apartments right here in New York City and paying high rents for it and can't get the landlord to correct violations the fact they've got to pay high heavy interest under the table when they put by on credit these are things you're talking about I mean right summers I sleep I mean I mean you know like the Commission on Human Relations you know human rights human rights right OK human related human rights you know OK you know yourself you know that things have gotten worse you know instead of better for the mass of large people and yet Julius Lester you say that while you haven't made up your mind about separatism you're not sure yet whether or not there's a possibility that white people will change and they're the ones who control right now you still say in your book The concept of the black man as a nation which is only being talked about now will become a reality when violence comes it is that as positive as it sounds is it possible that there is no way out no other way of black Americans are belittled So your way out in any other way are I mean the only event of country listens to for crying out loud is violence. This country will not move against China because China has the bomb it will not move against Russia it respects you know that military power you know Russia has a missile States is going to try to talk to Russia deal with Russia and that my own experience has shown me that you know when a policeman knows that black people are on he's gone think twice before he does anything he don't respect the fact he's got no respect or many to many don't respect that gone suddenly a week I heard a trap Brown speaking of Russia and saying that he's not at all sure he believes that the Russian form of government is not the form of government for him. But he seemed to lean toward Red China do you have the same. Well let's put it this way. I see things and socialist countries around the world that I would certainly like to see here and there had you know no I do not want you know of the Chinese style government without you know none of them you know but there are things you remember that you know but there are things from that you know which I can learn and take from me for example. The fact that people and countries don't have to pay rent for those free medical care for people things which I definitely think should be spread every country in the world but I think that you know whatever comes here has to be American and it can't be adopted from anyplace else you say in your book also quote America is a country that is built upon principles of humanity What do you mean one of the economic political realities of life that must be destroyed. Well I mean I feel that basic principles of any humanity is that a man have to pay somebody to get well you know I've known people who have died been buried in a grave because they didn't have the money to go to a doctor at that said to humor me people hungry you know ten million people live on a starvation level in this country that's ridiculous all the food in a storage of a man is hungry Hey Baby Here's some food but you've got if the money in your pocket don't match the price tag they put on it you know and that I mean that is just inhuman you don't do that to people so that's why you say it's built on principles of principle in a manner that they call it cattle and they call it free enterprise and all of that which means that you know this man makes a profit I mean right that is set up for man to make a profit is not set up so that people have the basic necessities you also say the American rhetoric hides the American reality and that's what we've been saying all all during this program the American rhetoric and just as far as you know they talk about home of the Brave Land of the free when I was in school we used to say home of the brave negro man that a free white man you know we knew where it was that you asked about the sixty four thousand dollar question before and I want to ask now the sixty four million dollar question how can black power change at all is there a program is there something can be done is there something people can look to you know what I think you know that what is slowly being evolving is going to take you know quite a few years you know Farid to come out is some of the things that I have been trying to articulate here this morning that that a program that number one offers. Institutions farsighted that are built upon you know principles of humanity I mean the fact that you take it as an R. priori condition and people should have decent living conditions that's the first principle you know not you start off with all this rhetoric about you know I will forego freedom of the press. To get you know decent housing for people you know and education and medicine and these kind of things some of the rhetoric you don't need I don't need to rhetoric now I don't need to rhetoric that are as as as long as one person and this country is hungry then something's wrong now in your book also you talk about the historical myths that white Americans hold about Negroes and they grow slaves and we've had a lot about that recently because it seemed to be much more of an attempt at least to open up what really happened during the history of our country what are some of the historical facts that have been overlooked in black and be that are important. You know I think one of the basic things that has been overlooked in this still overlooked is the role that people have played you know in an America in the struggle period you know I think about number one that black people have always talked about the racism in this country and yet white America couldn't believe it until the current commission came out and said it you know and it's this whole thing of I won't believe what you say about yourself I'll believe what the white folks say about you and so therefore you're without a family good white man to say it when he says it I mean it's like when rat was in jail. The Kerner Commission report came out a New York Times asked him what he thought of it he said the colonel commission should be in jail with me because because that's what I say and I'm in jail for I remember when he said that because certainly there's no question about the fact that the kind of Lindsey commission we call here on the left and the colonel in the commission came out with some stark statements and kind of shook up some plan will even shook up the president. But then there hasn't been any real implementation of the recommendations of that commission I will have been because the commission made two kinds of recommendations to record you know recommendations where you know for this massive program you know the mastic program blah blah blah blah other recommendation was in terms of military preparations you know and they implemented that part police departments armed to the teeth not the first apartment in the Pentagon as our riot control center and that they have mobile labs and they can move any place in the country in three minutes five to click take care of like people so I mean it has been implemented is the imperial alley phenomenon in Newark is that part of this Oh well sure I mean it's part of the whole I mean while there's Imperioli Shanker it's part of the whole thing that anger I add change you into it why is that because Frank you're the guy shank is preaching more hatred of black people as much hatred of life people as George Wallace's and you say that in view of the fact that he believes he's only upholding the right to teachers. Is is he's a hole in the right of white teachers you know but he is he is not upholding the right of I mean let's put this way they've always said that black parents are care about their children blah blah blah blah they don't care about the children are OK here's an instance where black parents are actively involved and came out that I can involve in the school Mr Shank is put himself on the opposite side of this he says he's not he says he's in favor of the centralization of that rhetoric that's a law you know that's me I mean I mean that's that that's that's a lot of blatant lie you know prove that he hasn't proved it. I mean what do you done has brought more hatred of life people out in this city than anything I've seen to that we've got about a minute left can you just sum up for us where you think we're going now you seem to say that you were on the fence as to whether you wanted separatism and not have any final words like saying well you know I just think that where we're headed to present time is toward a a a race war in the country and that it must calm and I say you know let it come. And I guess the last thing that I would say without quote wonder Phillips you know. The abolitionists from the eighteen fifties who said you know he would like piece of possible but just as an article he would like peace if possible right but justice at all costs you will replace Law and Order with liberty and justice. There is no law and order if I don't have justice if my people in this country do not have justice then Law and Order is a problem even though Law and Order really should mean much more than what it was meant to be in the campaigns Yeah but you know the reality is that law in art is used as a weapon against us time is up but thank you Julius left of of being with us and a black man in America for those who are not red look at white a black guy is going to get your mama published by Dial Press it is well worth your reading providing a highly readable cutting and kind of reading you are the black power philosophy this bill both saying Please be with us next week when a black man in America will present Dr Nathan Wright Jr author of ready to write we welcome your comments on these programs send your cards on letters to black man in America W N Y C New York one hundred and join us again next Tuesday afternoon at five on W N Y C F I am or next Tuesday evening at nine am on W N Y C black man in America is a feature presentation of your city station broadcast in cooperation with the New York City Commission on Human Rights.