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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm grateful you are here. On today's show, actor, singer, dancer Ariana DeBose joins me in studio to preview her new cabaret performance, which is part of Lincoln Center's American Songbook concerts. We'll also speak to two of the people behind this year's series - Tony Award-winning director, George C. Wolfe and Lincoln Center's artistic director, Shanta Thake. We'll talk about the Great Migration and how artists are interpreting its legacy with Brooklyn Museum curator Kimberli Gant.

We'll talk about the history with Prince and Professor Joshua Gild. That is our plan. Let's get this started with some real talk about a real issue facing tens of thousands of Americans.

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Alison Stewart: What do McDonald's, Google, Walmart, Disney, and Public Radio have in common? Layoffs. The tech sector has been hit especially hard with Facebook Meta, Twitter, Microsoft, Spotify, and even Zoom shedding workers to cut budgets. We are talking big numbers. Amazon laid off 27,000 employees. Apple just revealed corporate cuts yesterday. GM planned layoffs until 5,000 workers took buyouts. Rising costs for goods in a post-pandemic American economy means a lot of people are looking for new jobs. For some people, this is the first time dealing with a layoff. It can be an emotional roller-coaster and a practical financial horror show. For others, this feels like 2008 all over again.

We are talking layoffs this hour. We've invited back two of our favorite guests to guide a conversation about navigating layoffs. Rob Barnett is the author of Best Job, Next Job. He's helped thousands of job seekers and companies find the right fit. Rob, thank you so much for being with us.

Rob Barnett: Thank you. Great to be with you.

Alison Stewart: Lynnette Khalfani-Cox, also known as the Money Coach, is a personal finance expert and author of the New York Times Bestseller, Zero Debt: The Ultimate Guide to Financial Freedom. Lynnette, welcome back as well.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Is this your first experience with a layoff? Call in, let us know how you're doing. What are your plans? If you're someone who's been through a layoff, maybe you share some strategies you learned along the way, or maybe you were laid off and it led to something better. Or maybe you'd like some's financial or career advice from our experts; a little guidance or maybe just a sounding board. Our phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Or you can hit us up on social media @AllOfItWNYC, that's both Twitter and Instagram. You can DM us if you'd like to remain anonymous. Of course, this is just guidance, each person's situation is individual.

I wanted to start our conversation with a tweet from Lynnette and I wanted us all to share because we've all been laid off. The three of us in different times in our lives have been laid off. Lynnette, you tweeted a couple of weeks ago, "20 years ago, I was fired from my job. What I thought was a setback was really a setup for something better. Now I'm celebrating my 20th year as an entrepreneur. Don't give up." Will you share what happened in that moment 20 years ago?

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Sure. Thank you for starting with the personal side of it, because I really do think that addressing the emotional blow of job loss is equally as important as addressing the financial considerations. In my case, I was a Wall Street Journal reporter for CNBC. I had been with Dow Jones for about a decade, and I was an on-air reporter talking about financial and money matters and doing something that I loved very, very much. It came to me, frankly as quite a blow, as quite a surprise when my then-boss told me frankly after a series of negotiations, after I had gotten a raise and a promotion, and after I had what I thought was a deal in place, told me that I was going to be among 200 people that were being laid off.

I was like, "This is not right. This is not fair." I had a personal little pity party I can absolutely admit. I stressed about it initially, but very quickly, and again, this was March, 2003, but very quickly, as in literally that same month, I decided I am not going to let this define me. I am going to bounce back stronger and better, and I'm going to continue doing the very thing that I love, which is talking about money all the time, getting on TV, writing about it, et cetera. I started my own company that month, March 2003. Indeed, as you mentioned Alison, in March 2003, I celebrated my 20th anniversary.

Frankly, I can honestly say I make way, way, way more as an entrepreneur [laughs] working for myself. Even though I was a very nicely compensated six-figure wage earner but I do much better. Sometimes I tell people my personal story just as a little bit of hope and inspiration and for them to open their minds to other possibilities as well.

Alison Stewart: Rob, how about for you? When was the time you were laid off? What can you tell people about that experience firsthand?

Rob Barnett: Well, I can tell you that I'm a head hunter now and have been one helping folks get through the struggle of being laid off for the last five years. It happened because I was in what I thought was a great job. I was working at Audible, part of Amazon. They put me in charge of a guy who was also out of work. That guy's name is Joe Biden. He had a book that he wrote dedicated to his son and the memory of losing his son, Beau, and they put me in charge of marketing. I had this incredible experience working with our now president for about three or four months to help get that book and its message out into the world, the message is how to turn pain into purpose.

After we launched the book, they called me into human resources and I thought, "Here comes my bonus. Here comes my promotion," but it was not that meeting. It was the meeting that many of our listeners might have had recently, the meeting that says, "Alison, what I'm about to say is not personal, it's just business and you've been restructured. Your job has been eliminated." That's not the first rodeo for me. I've been through it a bunch. My entire working life now is really a mission to help people get through this because getting through it alone is just too hard and too painful.

Alison Stewart: I'm going to share one, I'm not going to tell other people's stories, but 15 years ago I had the job of my dreams before this, sort of a precursor to this job with NPR, the Bryant Park Project. It was canceled while I was on maternity leave. Let me just tell you where a few people who were on that show were, and we were all devastated. We loved this show. One is now the president of Jordan Peele's film company, one is a senior producer on the Rachel Maddow Show, and another, Dan Pashman, is a James Beard Award-winning podcaster and started The Sporkful. There is life, even though you feel so bad in that moment, you just can't even really get past it. I wanted all of us to share a personal story. Lynnette, financially what are the first things you should do when you hear you are going to be laid off?

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Well, to be honest, again, Alison, when you're going to be laid off, I don't think the very first move you should do is anything financial. I know this might come as a bit of a surprise coming from a money coach and somebody who tries to teach people how to better manage their finances, but I know honestly that 80% or 90% of money management is really emotional, it's personal. It's about how people feel about various things that happen to them or what's going on in their life, which then dictates the actions and the habits. Really, the first thing I would say is to reframe your thinking.

It's like so many people think, like I did, frankly, "Why me? I was a great performer. I won awards. I had just gotten a promotion." We go into this negative spiral. Either thinking about our own perhaps inadequacies or thinking about how we were wronged in some way by the company. "I gave 20 years to this company, I gave seven years," or whatever. Really part of the reframing should be about you acknowledging and realizing a central fact of downsizing, which is, it truly never is really about you when there's not a performance issue or it's just something like that. When there's mass layoffs, it's really a reflection of the company.

It's a reflection that that organization had not adequately forecasted, planned, did the right financial modeling. It did not have the proper structure in place from a human resources standpoint, from a management standpoint to realize how much headcount they needed, how much they didn't need, where they needed people, et cetera. Part of getting to the ability to take the proper financial steps is first acknowledging the loss, acknowledging the blow, sitting with that. Because I think if you skip over that, and if you just try to go, "Let me run to the money management, what I need to do," it's going to carry with you in your interviews to the next place and in your ability to move forward.

Now, just as a matter of financial things, very quickly, three things. One, absolutely apply for unemployment benefits, two, overhaul your budget. Too many people think that, "Oh, I'm going to find another job, it'll be quick," or whatever, and they keep living the same standard of living that they had been, and it's time to adjust and re-jigger things. Then third is negotiate. I'm not talking about negotiating for your next job or salary. With all of your existing creditors and the bills that you're paying, try to lower those insurance costs, see if you can get lower utilities and a cheaper cell phone service, et cetera. Those will be the three immediate financial steps I would take.

Alison Stewart: Rob, on the professional front, what are the first two or three things you should think about doing, once you get past that hurdle of, "I feel hurt, I'm upset. This is not what I had planned for." Once you deal with that, you process it, what should you start to think about, first couple of steps?

Rob Barnett: You've got to reassess, you've got to re-position, and you've got to re-define who you are. I see so many LinkedIns and resumes in my day job, and so many people think that the best path to getting the next job is to list two or three, or four potential job functions that you can fill. I realized that that's not the way the company thinks. If the company's roof is leaking, they need a roofer, and they're only going to go looking for R-O-O-F-E-R. We work with people every day to define what we call your North Star. Had I not accidentally stumbled on this word "headhunter," all the wonderful people that I know in my life wouldn't be exactly sure which version of Rob they were looking at.

The first big step is to define yourself clearly at the top of your LinkedIn and at the top of your resume. Step two is then to re-write that resume and re-write that LinkedIn. You've got to go through a process of both emphasis, and yes, frankly, sometimes omission, so that the story you're telling is clear, and you look like the person that's really focused on that North Star so that you can be seen clearly as the candidate they're looking for.

Alison Stewart: What's an example, Rob, of something you think someone might think, "I need to put that in my resume," but that really might be a stumbling block or might be an obstacle?

Rob Barnett: Well, look, we've all got to survive, we've got to pay the bills. Sometimes what happens when you're stuck in between jobs, as I've been many times, is you got to go get some kind of a survival job. Let's say that I'm a marketer, but at this particular moment, I couldn't get a marketing job, and I had to go help a friend out in his legal office, which, yes, I did, once. Well, that's really off-topic from what I'm doing. You've got to remove some of these survival things on your resume that are going to tell a story that's confusing.

Nobody passed a law that says the resume has to be every paycheck you've ever received. You need to present the stuff that is the most relevant to the work that you're trying to get.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: I concur with that, also, from a financial perspective, those survival gigs are often necessary. Because let's be honest, I think research shows that for every $10,000 in income, it takes about a month to replace that position so that if you had a say, a $60,000 a year job, it might take about six months to be able to get a new comparable paying position. What do you do in the interim? It is I think incumbent upon a number of people to consider freelancing, side hustles, some kind of gig economy work, anything that is what Rob defined as a survival job, but not necessarily everything needs to go on the resume. This is something that you do financially to keep yourself and your family afloat.

Alison Stewart: Let's take some calls. Brian is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Brian. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Brian: Hello, hello. I'm calling in as a young person who is in the midst of applying for a lot of jobs after losing some work and spending a little too long in the survival job game. I find myself whenever I apply for jobs, I tend to-- as somebody with ADD and as somebody who's a hyper-fixating perfectionist get way too emotionally invested into the job applications that I do. I find myself spending entire days on job applications for things that could be such a reach, or things that could be even like something that I really, really want, and it's really hard for me to separate myself from the work that I do.

When I apply for something and I don't hear back after having put so much energy into the application, it feels incredibly defeating. Then I find myself then not applying for work for a while because all of that emotional labor, all of that writing just gets so heavy. I was just wondering as to any advice on taking a step away from the job process and trying to work more like a machine in that sense.

Alison Stewart: Rob, I'm going to ask you. How do you apply for a job, give it your all, but not give it all of you, I guess?

Rob Barnett: Brian, you've got three great issues that you raised. Let's tackle them real quick one at a time. The first thing is the comment you made about feeling that you're reaching for something that you want. Just by saying that word, it means that your resume, your history, your background might not have all the things they're really asking for on that job description. Here's what I want to say about that. As a headhunter, I work with people nonstop every day of the week, and not every person is going to check every box on a job description. However, you really have to be honest with yourself, look at that job description, and say, "If I'm not checking about 70% of those boxes, then I really shouldn't apply," because they're not going to come to you as the guy.

The second thing is about how you apply. Unless you've won the lottery, I wouldn't recommend too many cold uploads of resumes. You've got to take on the job of trying to do a little detective work and reach somebody inside that company to ask the most important question you can ask. "Who is the hiring manager for this role? Can you please help me find that out?" Then secondly, "Would you be willing to get me their email or introduce me?" We've got to get people to help us and run human resources and get to the actual hiring managers.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about layoffs. My guests are Rob Barnett, author of Best Job, Next Job, and Lynnette Khalfani-Cox, the author of the New York Times bestseller, Zero Debt: The Ultimate Guide to Financial Freedom. She is a money coach. We're going to take more of your calls about layoffs, surviving layoffs. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Social media is @AllOfItWNYC on Twitter or Instagram. We'll be right back.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Lynnette Khalfani-Cox, the money coach and author of Zero Debt: The Ultimate Guide to Financial Freedom, and Rob Barnett, author of Best Job, Next Job. We are talking about navigating layoffs. Lynnette, I wanted to ask you before you leave, say your company has given you a couple of months or given you a heads up, this is happening. What are some things you should go to HR and ask about, in terms of maybe your company's savings plan, or different financial incentives? Is there anything that you should be asking HR before you exit?

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Yes, absolutely, there are a number of things you should ask HR for before you exit. I actually was in a position where, when I got downsized in 2003, my employer did give me notice, so I had several months' notice. I still again, not knowing what I know now, I still didn't fully take advantage of all the things that were available to me or that would have been on the table had I negotiated for them or requested them.

First, you should take advantage of anything that is healthcare-related. If you get COBRA benefits, or if you get healthcare benefits, they may be willing to extend those for a period of time. Even if you end up having to pay for the COBRA benefits on your own, better to be with healthcare than not to have that type of coverage. Secondly, anything that is financial that the company will do for you that will help you to get that next job, you should take advantage of that. If they offer you career counseling services, resume preparation services, time with an executive recruiter, or a headhunter like Rob, et cetera, by all means, take advantage of those types of things.

Additionally, they may extend some things that have to do with, again, depending on your industry and the type of compensation you've received, something that has to do with your stock options or grants that you might have been awarded. In my case, unfortunately, I lost out on everything, literally everything. Again, it was a miss more on my behalf in terms of not negotiating and not even knowing to negotiate at the time for those. I just said, "Oh, this is the rules by the company, and this is it," but I would have pushed harder for that, certainly.

Yes, you should always be thinking about what you can leverage and extract from your employer before you walk out the door, and those things don't extend purely to financial considerations. They may be other things, like an employer may say, "You can keep using our office," or, "You can continue to have us listed on your resume until X amount of time until you get the next job," which will avoid you having a gap on your resume, et cetera. By all means, don't feel so mad, bitter, upset, or disheartened by the fact that you've been downsized that you kind of blow off the employer's overtures or offers to help you to manage this transition better than you would have otherwise.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Caitlin from Jersey City. Hi, Caitlin, thanks for calling in.

Caitlin: Hi, yes, thanks for taking my call. This isn't a question, more advice. I've been laid off twice in the past year and a half from the tech industry and startups, so I have gotten familiar with what to do after that. Part of it is what the-- because we're saying was to take some odd jobs just to have some income, so I did some dog walking on the side. The other thing I think was really helpful was to just reach out to my network. I sent a mass text to everyone I used to work with that I was recently laid off.

I think what's important here is that there's a lot of shame that people have, and I myself included, around getting laid off, but it's so prevalent right now that I think just own that story, and more than not, people are willing to help each other out because it's such a tough time. I'm also a recovering recruiter, so I wouldn't look at anyone's resume or LinkedIn and see if they put that they were recently laid off. I wouldn't look at that negatively, so just some advice for how to handle the current situation.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for your call. Rob, I'm curious. For some people, this is the first time that they've ever been laid off, but some of us went through this in 2008, and now we're in our 50s, which is sort of a been on the planet longer than you're going to be on the planet moment. Maybe in the last third or quarter of your career, and this can feel daunting, to say like, "Oh gosh, I'm going to try to find a new job," maybe you're used to at a certain level. What is a common mistake for a later-in-life laid-off person?

Rob Barnett: Well, it's funny. I made over 1,000 daily videos about how to get the next job, best job. I used to play a game. I didn't want to talk about ageism because I felt like if you brought it up, then this was a negative thought that was going to be in your head and slow you down. I really believe that at any age on a job search, the most important thing you've got to do is outwork the other competitors, outwork the other candidates. The ways to do that, two most important ways, one is do more homework on that company than any other candidate.

The last advice is to make sure that if you have the opportunity to write a cover letter to that company, pitching yourself and making the case, don't do what everybody else does. Everybody writes the cover letter that says, "Me, me, me, me. I'm award-winning, I'm proven, I'm wonderful, I'm terrific, and oh, by the way, I'd like to work at your company." Show the company that more about them than the other candidates have expressed. Show them that you've got incisive questions, that you've got real feedback, and then yes, go ahead and mention a couple of things about yourself.

The best trick that I could possibly give you is to really prove to the company that you're bringing more to the table than anybody else who's just saying, "I have great oral and written communication skills."

Alison Stewart: Lynnette, what is something that people who are in their 40s or 50s, who are being laid off, need to think about financially? It's different than someone who is single in their 20s, for sure.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Certainly, they probably have more debt. They probably have maybe student loans they're paying off for themselves or their kids if they took out some loans for the kids. They may have a mortgage if they are homeowners. They may have car loans, et cetera, so there could be the issue of debt. On that front, you absolutely want to think about lifestyle choices. You've said if they're struggling and if they're in their 40s, 50s, or onward, so many times we are reluctant to change.

If you've been through a downsizing and it's been a number of months and months and months on end and the income has not come in yet or the replacement job has not yet materialized, I do think you have to consider lifestyle choices. Does your family need that second car? Should you get a roommate to help cover the housing costs? Is downsizing or relocation a viable option for you? Some of those things. Then you need to be also doing the basics that will improve cash flow on a regular basis. It's everything from like look at what's going out the door all the time, either on your debit cards, via your checking or savings account, or things that are hitting your credit card accounts like subscriptions.

A lot of people think, "Oh, I'm just paying-- maybe I have like $100 or subscriptions." In reality, the average American has about $220 a month in subscriptions, so just things like cutting subscriptions or recurring bills is another way. I mentioned before about negotiating with the folks that you owe, et cetera, and certainly, that's prudent to do, but also get into the habit of bartering. Instead of always thinking, "I have to pay for X, Y, Z product or service," think about ways in which you still have value skills, information, knowledge that you can exchange for what you actually need, and then that'll free up some cash flow for you as well.

Alison Stewart: For example, I could look after your kids if you could do, like I say, print resumes, but that shows my age. Maybe you could help me make a video for my website, something like that?

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Monica from the Hudson Valley. Hi, Monica.

Monica: Hey, thanks for taking my call. I was laid off at the beginning of the year, and I come from the early-stage startup world. The VC market's been on a downward trend for the last six months. We all know that capital invested in startups has decreased, valuation is decreasing, and this has really been the world that I live in. As I'm entering this job market now and starting my hunt a few months back, I'm coming against the largest amount of competition I've ever faced because so many of people who have experienced layoffs in the tech sector across Apple, Google, et cetera well, these are my competitors now.

My question for everyone on the line here is how do I compete, how do I stand apart when I'm coming up against these really highly qualified candidates, and my background is really more in the VC startup world? How do I stand out?

Alison Stewart: Rob, you mentioned a little bit about your cover letter. What should be in your cover letter? I'm going to spin it a little bit, Monica, and hopefully, this will help you out. What does a resume look like in 2023?

Rob Barnett: Well, Monica, you're talking to a guy that's had a lot of startup experience. I think that no matter what happens, good, bad, and yes, in the startup land, sometimes ugly, someone like you who's been in a very entrepreneurial venture has a big plus on the resume. Companies even bigger than early-stage startups really appreciate the entrepreneurial experience even even if there wasn't the big magic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

The thing to answer both your questions, Alison and Monica, is that no matter how south the startup goes, you immediately look at your resume and say, what are the real true greatest achievements that I created while I was at that job, even if it didn't get me to the promised land? Because that's going to be strong on your resume. One last quick thing before we get to hopefully some more questions is that, I think you've got to be really careful when you choose startups to make sure that they've got enough money in the bank to pay you for at least a couple of years. It's really important to do your homework if you're going to choose a startup and make sure the funding is there.

Alison Stewart: Lynnette, where do you stand on asking friends and family for financial help?

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: That's a great question, Alison. If you've been laid off and trying to make ends meet, I don't think that it's an inexcusable thing to ask friends and family for assistance. I do think you should be judicious about the type of help that you seek, though. I would be reluctant to say, go for a family loan or cash, donations, gifts outright in terms of monetary like that. What I would say is a better strategy is to ask for the supports that you need and the rounding of having the family put their arms around you symbolically and literally of course in ways that will advance you and what you need to get done.

It may be you have a sister who can, like you mentioned, do some babysitting for you while you're out job hunting. It may be that you have an aging parent who can come in and who's retired now, but who can, instead of you having, say, somebody in the house who was, I don't know, if you had a--

Alison Stewart: Watching the dog, walking the dog or something.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Yes. Just whatever. Somebody else was-- Maybe your uncle who can cut the grass. I don't know, I'm just randomly coming up with something here. The idea is, first of all, that family can serve as a network. We talked about sort of eliminating the shame and the guilt and the negative connotations and emotions that people feel. You need to utilize your family as a resource and tell them, "I'm job hunting. I'm looking." You never know where your next opportunity is going to come from. Often it is through people you know. I'm more like teach a man how to fish instead of giving him fish all the time type of thing. I would look to family members and friends for ways that they can help.

If you have, for example, family members who are actually doing financially better than you are, then maybe the question is about, "I've had a layoff recently and I'm re-doing my own budget and doing some financial planning. Can you tell me what strategies have worked best for you or is there someone that you can recommend that I talk to? Is there a book that you can recommend?" Those kinds of things. Then people, if somebody wants to offer or something to that, you can be open to that if it comes up, but I wouldn't lead with, "Please loan me $5,000 so I can make it through the next month or two." I would resist that because unfortunately, all too often family gifts, loans, cash, all that, it clouds relationships and it makes things go south.

Alison Stewart: Let's slide another call in here. Kofi, from Brooklyn, has a question for Rob. Hi, Kofi.

Kofi: Hey, thank you for taking my call. Mine is a follow-up to what Rob said to Brian, the call of Brian's question. Rob, so you said he could do some investigative work and then find out who the hiring manager is. Once you have the hiring manager's information or even office line, what do you say? That is a challenge. What do you say that it would not be either you don't seem too desperate or too pushy in a way to not turn them off? After Brian's response, any of you can put your perspective in. Thank you very much.

Alison Stewart: Kofi, that's a great question. A lot of people get really concerned about pushing too far once they get to that human being. Some advice on language they can use so that they present themselves in the best way and don't turn the person off.

Rob Barnett: Well, Kofi, if you have the person's email address, if you're able to find out how to get to them, then I do recommend you write a very succinct brief note saying that you've seen this position, you believe that you have the qualifications for the job. You give some examples, as we said earlier, about how much homework you've done about the company. You let them know that you know who they are, you know what they're about, you understand their mission. Then you're very directly and very simply asking for an initial interview as soon as they're able to meet.

There's just really a lot of benefit in being succinct and direct and just go for it and realize, Kofi, too, that it's a numbers game. It's really the odds are, and this is a shame in this world that we live in, most people don't respond. Someday we're going to start a new religion called just respond. I'm looking for volunteers. If you don't get a response, then you go, go, go, go, go and make sure you're doing X amount of minutes every day. Good luck, Kofi.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Alison, can I say one last thing too about--

Alison Stewart: Yes, we got about one minute.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: For our listeners who perhaps haven't had a job loss or haven't gotten a pink slip, prepare as if you might. I like to tell people to do a financial stress test and to see how long could you last without a paycheck. Then that gives you some guidance about what you need to do in terms of building an emergency cash cushion or determining whether, if you're in a partnership, in a relationship, if you are in a two-income household, how long the two of you could last with one paycheck or reduced check. All of us need to be better prepared because this isn't the end. This is going to continue to happen season after season, year after year.

Alison Stewart: We've got some great advice from Rob Barnett, the author of Next Job, Best Job, as well as Lynnette Khalfani-Cox. Her book is called Zero Debt: The Ultimate Guide to Financial Freedom. Thanks to both of you for the great advice and for helping out our listeners who called in and folks who didn't call in. I'm sure a lot of people got a lot out of this conversation.

Lynnette Khalfani-Cox: Thank you, Alison.

Rob Barnett: Thanks so much.

 

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