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Brigid Bergin: This is All Of It. I'm Brigid Bergin, filling in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm grateful you're here. Speaking of gratitude, I want to give you all an update. As many of you know, Alison is out on medical leave to recover from donating a kidney to her sister, Lisa. That surgery happened earlier this week and both Alison and Lisa are doing really well. Thank you so much for your good vibes and messages of support.

Now, on to today's show. We'll preview this weekend's action at the World Cup, which is when the unforgiving knockout round begins. We'll talk about Flex, a new play at Lincoln Center that follows a high school girl's basketball team. Author Laura Lippman joins me to discuss her latest novel, the relentless page-turner, titled Prom Mom. That's the plan, so let's get this started with some wine for everyone.

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Brigid Bergin: If someone told you to describe your favorite bottle of wine, what would you say? Maybe you would say it has a touch of new wood with hazelnut overtones, or maybe you just know what you don't like. Don't pour me anything oaky, please. Oftentimes, this complex lingo can all feel a bit out of reach if you're not a sommelier. That sometimes also bothered wine enthusiast, Joan De Jesus. When she received her wine certification in 2021, she noticed that the world of wine tasting felt a bit inaccessible, a bit pretentious. The classes she took felt uptight with so many rules and coded language, and the tasting notes relied on a Eurocentric palate, which she had trouble relating to as an Afro-Latina woman.

That's why she decided to take matters into her own hands. She launched Wine For Me, a collective intended for those who want to take part in wine-tasting culture, but with a focus on community building. Now it's been a little over a year since the launch of her Wine For Me, Joan has hosted casual get-togethers, mostly on Sundays, where folks can meet up at a local bar and outdoor space to discover new wines and, more importantly, connect with others in a more casual way. One of her more recent events brought over 80 people to Prospect Park. That's amazing.

Brooklyn Magazine called Joan's wine-tasting events an unpretentious meeting ground for mostly femme millennials. With us to talk more about her journey to make wine tasting more accessible, and to give some wine recommendations to our listeners is Joan De Jesus. Joan, welcome to All Of It.

Joan De Jesus: Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Brigid Bergin: We're so happy because we want to get some of our listeners in on this conversation. Listeners, we're talking wine. It's just about the right time of day for that. Do you need a wine recommendation for this summer? Maybe you've been curious to try that orange wine you've been seeing in your local wine shop, or maybe you just want to know the difference between conventional wines and natural wines. We're here with Joan De Jesus, a wine curator and founder of Wine For Me, a collective for wine lovers, especially for folks from marginalized backgrounds.

Maybe you're doing a dinner date and want to impress your date with a fancy new bottle of red. We want to hear your questions. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also share your thoughts on our social media channels @allofitwnyc. Joan, let's get started with your love of wine. What got you interested in-- Was there a moment when you thought, "Wow, I really have a knack for this"?

Joan De Jesus: Yes. I think I've always had exposure to so many different kinds of flavors and cuisine. I come from a Latin background. I'm a New York native, so I've always been drawn to foods that are either spicy or textured, or flavored. I knew certain wines were going to be really special to me. I started my wine certification in 2021 before even incepting Wine For Me as an event. There was definitely, I think, a catalyst in my journey that told me, "You love wine, you're good at it, but perhaps how you're going about it isn't the most true to you right now."

Brigid Bergin: So you decided to get a formal certification. Where did you do that, how'd that go?

Joan De Jesus: I got a Level 2 certification at WSET, which is a globally-accredited wine course that lots of somms take, whether they want to work at a wine shop, wine bar, or create their own wine list at fine dining restaurants.

Brigid Bergin: I like your use of somms. Shorthand for sommelier, I'm sure.

Joan De Jesus: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: It's the lingo of this wine culture, I guess.

Joan De Jesus: Yes. Just to put it out there, I am Spanish-dominant, I'm not French-dominant, so I cannot pronounce so many fancy French words. [chuckles]

Brigid Bergin: I hear you, and I feel you. What were the classes like? Was there an instance at any point where you felt like, "These classes are not meant for someone like me. They're not catering to someone from my background"?

Joan De Jesus: Yes. As part of this course I was taking, in order to pass, you need to be able to accurately describe a grape through a blind tasting.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, wow.

Joan De Jesus: In one instance, there was one wine, it was Sauvignon Blanc, and Sauvignon Blancs are a really aromatic grape. Everyone in the classroom was tasting and sniffing and describing, and some people said things like, "Oh, this tastes like a gooseberry or like fresh-cut grass," and I'm here listening in all this very expansive language, and they get to me and I say, "This tastes like a quenepa," and it was complete silence. You would think that I just dropped the ether beat, and everyone looked at me like, "What's that? Which was like the moment for me, where things went off in my head, because as a person of color, growing up in New York, there are about like 50 different things and ways you can describe a quenepa.

If you're in Latin America, you might call it a limoncillo or a quenepa, or if you're from the Caribbean, you might call it a guinep or a Spanish lime. It's a cross between a peach, so there is definitely a pith in it and a lime. It [unintelligible 00:06:43] described as like stone fruit grassy green wine that I was experiencing. Yes, it was completely unseen in that experience. I wasn't necessarily deducted a point, I'd certainly passed certification, but it was one of those moments where I was like, "I wonder if I can create a space where quenepa is the standard and not gooseberry, if you know what I mean. Like, "Who has tried a gooseberry?"

Brigid Bergin: I mean, I couldn't tell you what a gooseberry tastes like. That wouldn't help me understand what the wine tasted like at all either. I think you're starting to move us in the direction, but tell us a little bit more about the beginnings of Wine For Me.

Joan De Jesus: As you mentioned, Wine For Me started last year, so we're coming across our one-year anniversary. At first, we started really casually. With some friends on my stoop [unintelligible 00:07:31] and I'd pour wines and talk about that. I realized that people were really curious about learning about wine, but not in these traditional stuffy wine bars. I got to a place where I could only host so many people on my stoop, so I started showing this proof of concept to local wine bars in my neighborhood and said, "Hey, I have a group of predominantly Black and brown folks who are really into wine. We just need a home that is accepting, and if you let me curate this wine, I'm sure it'll be fun."

Sure enough, we started creating this following. It happens on Sundays, specifically, because I do believe Sundays are the new Fridays. So much less pressure on Sundays, and it's just a really good way to go into your week.

Brigid Bergin: I love it. You are passionate about natural wines, as I understand. How did that become one of your main focuses?

Joan De Jesus: Natural wine, I think, is just wine that is better for us and the planet. It is the original way wine was made. For thousands of years, people were making wine naturally, and conventional wine is really only 50 to 60 years old. When I say conventional wine, I mean like big box retailers. What I find a natural wine is, it's more expressive, it's more unique, it varies vintage to vintage, year across year, because the earth changes, people change, the hands that are picking these grapes change. I just find it to be more of a personal way to interact with wine than maybe some of these big box that are on shelves in stores you go to.

Brigid Bergin: Just for someone who's coming at this maybe as a newbie, what is the real difference between natural wines and conventional wines in terms of, I think, that process, the making process that you started to describe?

Joan De Jesus: The big difference between natural wine and conventional wine is that natural wine is fermented grape juice with little to no intervention, I'm talking sulfites, pesticides, sprays. Whereas conventional winemaking is fermented grape juice that has maybe some additives for that oak flavor, maybe they add additional sugar, maybe they add other kinds of synthetic preservatives for mass production. You end up getting, I think, less real wine in a bottle of conventional wine, and more of that other stuff.

Brigid Bergin: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, filling in for Alison Stewart. My guest is Joan De Jesus, and we are about Wine For Me, a collective that strives to make wine tasting accessible and inclusive. We want to hear from you. Do you need a wine recommendation for the summer? Are you curious about something you've seen in your local wine store? Maybe you've got a favorite wine or a wine store you want to shout out, give us a call. The number's 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also reach us on social media @allofitwnyc. Let's go to Danielle in Manhattan. Danielle, thanks so much for calling All Of It.

Danielle: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brigid Bergin: We can hear you. Do you have a question or a suggestion?

Danielle: I have a question. I was wondering why it's not possible to get more varieties of South African wine in wine shops in New York City. It's hands down my favorite type of wine. They have varieties that don't exist in other places and it's impossible to find.

Joan De Jesus: Yes, that's a great question. I think really when you think about distance location, there's also things like wine imports and taxes that make certain wines harder to get to the states. If you think about how wine is made, maybe when that wine left that South African vineyard, maybe it was aged for three months, by the time you get it in Manhattan, maybe it's five, six months. Some of these wines maybe aren't really made for that kind of aging. I think it really is on a case-to-case basis.

Wine shop owners are experts in this in terms of distribution. I think that's the case for a lot of wines. Even in certain regions of France, I joke that some of the best wine doesn't leave France because they drink it all. I imagine maybe that's the case with South Africa as well.

Brigid Bergin: Let's talk a little bit about what do you experience of attending a Wine For Me event can be like. If someone is coming for the first time, what can they expect? Is it okay to just show up? What do you do when you're there?

Joan De Jesus: This is the fun part. Like I mentioned, Wine For Me happens on Sundays typically from 3:00 to 7:00 PM. I didn't really want to compete with people's weekend. I wanted to be a place where both can catch up. One thing that makes Wine For Me different is that when you walk in, you'll hear a lot of the kind of music I think that you want to hear on a Sunday afternoon. My Holy Trinity is Mariah, Whitney, and Janet. Then you'll also find an abbreviated wine list for the day that I curate.

On this wine menu, you'll have natural wines that I'm currently inspired by or wines that are seasonal. Knowing that there's still some accessibility issues with wine, I really work with the somms and bar managers to make sure that there is a wine by the glass at a price point that's accessible. When I say accessible, I mean $12 and under.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, wow.

De Jesus: Sometimes you go to a wine bar and let's say you are curious and you want to try more, but there's a glass that's $17 and you're like, "Hmm, that's lunch." That's lunch most days Monday through Friday. There is definitely this piece about this environment, this cultural acceptance. Then you'll see a lot of people that look like you, that you've seen in your neighborhood. I think that makes this particular event really special.

Brigid Bergin: One person on Instagram commented on your posting, "What was life before Wine For Me?" When did you start noticing that you were making an impact, really building a community?

Joan De Jesus: Oh, I love that comment. It did make me smile. I think I started without really thinking too much into it. I really started it as a desire to create a space where I, as a wine enthusiast, could drink wine and feel good about the wine I'm drinking, the music around me. What I found is that a lot of people actually felt that way too. I think that's how a lot of things organically happen in New York. You find your people and you create a space that doesn't exist and then you realize, "Wow, people want to drink wine on Sundays with friends."

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] I am speaking with Joan De Jesus. She's the curator and founder of Wine For Me, a collective that strives to make wine tasting more accessible and inclusive. We're answering your questions about wine, giving you recommendations. We have to take a short break. We'll be back with more of your calls. You're listening to All Of It on WNYC.

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Brigid Bergin: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, in for Alison Stewart. I am speaking with Joan De Jesus, the wine curator and founder of Wine For Me, a collective that strives to make wine tasting accessible and inclusive. We were just hearing about some of her meetups on Sunday afternoons. We've got a bunch of callers who have questions and thoughts. We're going to go to David in Brooklyn. David, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for calling All Of It.

David: Sure. Thanks for having me. Joan De Jesus, that's so great because Jesus, Jesus loved a good glass of wine every so often too, right?

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Joan De Jesus: Yes, he did.

David: I'm calling because I'm a union person and I know that the United Farm Workers, for instance, are organizing vineyards and farms across New York state. There was a blog recently passed that allowed them to do this. I just wanted to make a pitch for those particular wines. There's an organizing drive right now at Pindar Vineyards in Long Island where these workers are finally organizing themselves and getting the dignity and respect they deserve on the job. We know that with the climate change and everything, these workers are working in dire conditions with this heat. This heat wave, especially across the country. From California to New York and other places like that. I just wanted to elevate that, especially because we know a lot of these farmers are from people of color, from the Caribbean, from Mexico, from South America, and so forth.

Brigid Bergin: David, thank you so much for calling All Of It. Any reaction to the idea of organizing at some of these vineyards, Joan?

Joan De Jesus: Listen, I think we've seen the environment take a turn and it's affecting wine producers, winemakers, and workers. I think a world where the wine that we're drinking is made ethically and with ethical practices is good for everyone.

Brigid Bergin: That's great. Let's go to Jenny in Manhattan. Jenny, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Jenny: Hi. I was wondering if you had any recommendations for lower-ABV wines other than Vinho Verde.

Joan De Jesus: Ooh, that's a great question. I do love a good Vinho Verde. Certain wines that tend to be lower in alcohol, I really love Italian rosés. They might be a little bit more pale than maybe an Italian red, but rosés generally there's less time in terms of in contact with the skin of the red grape. You also might get less alcohol if you try some of those.

Brigid Bergin: That's great. Let's go to Lemou in Astoria. Lemou, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Lemou: Thank you for having me. Can you hear me?

Brigid Bergin: We can.

Lemou: Can you hear me?

Brigid Bergin: Yes. Go ahead.

Lemou: Okay, cool. I wanted to tell Joan, I am so proud of you for creating a space where people of color can gather and appreciate wine. I'm a older person and I grew up with mostly French classical training. I'm a chef and I love the fact that you are using descriptors that are familiar to this demographic, like the guinep, or mango, or papaya. I'm really proud of you.

When I was coming up in kitchens, no one ever said, "This Lambrusco would be great with fried chicken, or this pernil would be great with a glass of rosé." We just only talked about wine in terms of European descriptors, foods, and influences. If you ever want to do a cooking class with wine pairing, I would be totally open to that. In any case, I wish you the best of luck because I'm so proud of you, this generation who's just confronting things that my generation only said to themselves or in quiet places.

Brigid Bergin: Lemou, thank you so much for that very generous, very thoughtful call. Our producer can probably get your information and connect you with Joan after the segment. I saw your heart beating out of your chest.

Joan De Jesus: Yes. I was just here melting as you were talking. Thank you so much for saying that. All the foods you described, I'm like, "Yes, that sounds delicious. I wish someone would tell me what to pair a roti with or pernil not just necessarily French roast chicken all the time." I'm going to get your information later because I need to try some of this tasty food you're making.

Brigid Bergin: Joan, we got a text in. A question for the wine guest. I shop by distributor. Who are your favorites?

Joan De Jesus: Oh. In terms of natural wine, there are a few dominant portfolios that I go to. I love one distributor, Jenny & Francois. I also love by people at T. Edwards that have a really great portfolio of grower champagne. There are champagnes that are made by the farmers who are growing the actual grapes versus these big box champagne houses like Veuve and Moët.

I'm trying to think who else. It's actually a really great technique to find wines that you like. If you turn over that wine bottle and you see most of the wines you like have a TE or a JF or [unintelligible 00:19:59], just name a few, it's a good way to kind of build your own personal taste of, oh, I really like this portfolio. I really like the kinds of winemakers they represent. Here's a little tip, if you're new to wine or a wine enthusiast, sometimes going by distributor is a really good way to kind of get in.

Brigid Bergin: That's great. Let's go to Amman in Brooklyn. Amman, welcome to WNYC.

Amman: Hi, Joan.

Joan De Jesus: Hi.

Amman: First of all, I want to say Wine For Me is such an awesome event, and thank you for creating that space for Black and brown people to experience wine, whether it be their first time, whether it be there are many times of drinking many different kinds of bottles, but that goes to my question of, what do you think is the best or what advice would you give to someone who's a newcomer in the wine space or maybe going to a Wine For Me event for the first time?

Joan De Jesus: Oh, thanks for that question, Amman. I think that there's question about if you're new to wine, and then if you're new to one of the events. I'll tackle the first one. You know that saying, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Think about it like one grape at a time. If there is one grape that comes to mind that you love, let's say it's a Merlot. Let's say it's a Cab. Let's say it's a Pinot Noir. Try to spend some time and find as many different kinds of Pinot Noir as possible.

Find a Pinot Noir from upstate New York, from France, from Washington state, from California, and try to understand what style you gravitate towards. I think as you start developing your own personal palette, you'll be able to go to a wine shop and say, "Actually, I'd love a Willamette Valley Pinot Noir." In terms of like what to expect at a Wine For Me. It's really low-brow. You can really just show up. There will always be someone with a glass of wine who's willing to talk to you. Usually, that's me. I typically announce my events on my Instagram, which is @wineformebk. You can get all the information on the events there.

Brigid Bergin: Joan, I have to do a little game that we have created. It's called a Wine Lightning Round.

Joan De Jesus: Ooh.

Brigid Bergin: Shout out to our producer, Aki Camargo, who came up with these very compelling questions. It's pretty simple. I will give you a topic related to wine. You have to give me your immediate reaction and I'll give you some options. Question number one, chilling red wine, yay or nay?

Joan De Jesus: Absolutely. Yay.

Brigid Bergin: Question number two, putting ice cubes in wine. Yay, or nay?

Joan De Jesus: Yay. Why not?

Brigid Bergin: All right, question number three, mulled wine. Yay, or nay?

Joan De Jesus: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: Question number four, sangria red or white?

Joan De Jesus: I think both.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, really?

Joan De Jesus: I'm very lax in terms of wine preferences. Anyway, you're getting into wine is a yay for me.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Orange wine. What's the big deal?

Joan De Jesus: Orange wine is sometimes called mastered wine, and orange wine is not made from oranges, it's just white wine that has had much more contact with its white grape skin. You get deeper amber color. It's kind of had a moment the past few years and I think now it's more regularly available, but it's just white wine that's a little bit has a tan.

Brigid Bergin: Rosé, just a summer drink.

Joan De Jesus: I think rosé should be year-long. Reason why is there's so many different kinds of rosé. You can have a light pale pink provence style, you can have a deeper Italian rosé, you can have a really funky one from Czech. I think rosé is year-round.

Brigid Bergin: What about your favorite bubbly?

Joan De Jesus: I really like a crémant. It's made in a traditional way so you get kind of the same quality as maybe like a champagne with like a third of the price. I'm all about making these kinds of bubbly celebrations a regular thing. I can't go and buy a bottle of champagne most weeks. Crémant for me is my bubbly of choice.

Brigid Bergin: Ooh, that's a great choice. I want to read some of the texts that we're getting in on social media. One's a question. "Any natural wines in upstate New York you would recommend?"

Joan De Jesus: Ooh. I think the Finger Lakes counts, but there's this one producer called Forge and they make Cool Climate Pinot Noirs and really Bone Dry Reisling and they're really delicious.

Brigid Bergin: We got another text that says, "Shout out to King Mother in Ditmus Park, Brooklyn, a woman-owned natural wine bar that also focuses on women winemakers." New spot possibly for an event, and a text that we just have to read, which is, "This is Joan's sister, I'm listening to her on the radio. I want her to know that I am proud of her. You are a winner, baby."

Joan De Jesus: Oh my gosh. Perfect. [laughs]

Brigid Bergin: We just want to embarrass you on the radio. Joan, I know you have an event coming up next week. Can you tell us a little bit about where it is when it is?

Joan De Jesus: My next event is Sunday, August 13th from 3:00 to 7:00. It's going to be at one of my favorite bars in Brooklyn called Cafe Erzulie. We'll have a fresh new lineup of natural wines. We'll also have some femme DJs. More of my Holy Trinity of Janet, Mariah, Whitney, and a few other things. It should be a great time so everyone should come.

Brigid Bergin: That sounds great. Now I understand you still have a day job. Are there plans to make this wine gig a full-time endeavor?

Joan De Jesus: Most days I think about where my passions lie. I do love this idea that maybe my wine journey will lead to a full-time job or full-time gig, but I also love that it's something that I get to do and makes me happy, and makes other people happy. I think I'm fluid, but I'm open to it. We'll see.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] I want to end with one more caller, Megan in Stillwater, New Jersey. Megan, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Megan: Hi. Yes. Thank you for taking my call. I just had a quick question. What boxed wine brands would you maybe recommend? I know I try to be more eco-conscious and I read that the cardboard, like recycling the box of wine is a lot easier because you're not having to recycle glass bottles. Any recommendations for any boxed wine brands?

Joan De Jesus: I think bagged wine kind of gets a bad rep. There's lots of natural wine producers that are making their wines, especially ones that have just been fermented in a tank and don't need a bunch of aging in a bottle, in a bag of example because it's more eco-friendly. One that comes to mind is this gourmet blend by a producer, Jean Debar and it's a really delicious light-bodied, fruity red grape. It's dry and I actually brought it to the beach last week. I popped it in the freezer and it froze, and then I put it in a cooler and then it acted like ice for the rest of my beverages. I'm all for bagged wine, but that's one that comes to mind.

Brigid Bergin: Great suggestion. Well, we will leave it there for today. Joan De Jesus is founder of Wine For Me, a collective that focuses on making wine tasting more inclusive and communal for all. She's got a great event coming up. Joan, thanks so much for joining me on All Of It.

Joan De Jesus: Thank you so much.

 

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