New York City Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh talks about her role as head of the city's fire department, plus she discusses disparities in fire safety, a year after the fatal Twin Parks fire in The Bronx, recruitment, and other issues.
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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Last week marked the one-year anniversary of the deadly fire at the Twin Parks housing development in the South Bronx. If you remember, 17 members of the community perished in that fire although most from smoke inhalation rather than from the flames, pointing to inadequacies in infrastructure and awareness of fire safety protocols within the building. According to the New York Post, a total of 76 New Yorkers died from fires in 2022, an increase from the previous year.
To combat this and mark the anniversary of the Twin Parks fire, we've invited the city's new fire commissioner, Laura Kavanagh, to join us now. She was appointed to the position last October by Mayor Adams, making her the first female commissioner to lead the New York City Fire Department in its 157-year history. We'll talk about how the Twin Peaks fire changed many New Yorkers' buildings and much more now. Commissioner Kavanagh, it's a pleasure. Congratulations and welcome to WNYC.
Commissioner Kavanagh: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
Brian Lehrer: First, you want to take some time and introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners? What did you do in your career that led up to becoming the fire commissioner of New York City?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Absolutely. I have had a very interesting career. I've done a lot of things. I've worked inside and outside of government, worked on campaigns for unions in management consulting. Before I was appointed to this position, I was the first deputy commissioner here at the FDNY. Before that, I was a deputy commissioner here helping to run some recruitment and retention campaigns. I've been at the FDNY for about eight years now before I was appointed, learning about the unique nature of the agency and the critical life-saving work that they do.
Brian Lehrer: We'll get into what it means that you're the first female commissioner of the FDNY as we go, but I want to talk more about fire safety first. I want to invite our listeners in. Listeners, do you have fire safety or any other questions for the FDNY commissioner, Laura Kavanagh? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I know a few things changed in my building after the Twin Parks fire, maybe in yours that you have a question about. Maybe you're a firefighter, 9/11-- 911, I should say, dispatcher, EMT, or anyone else who works under the FDNY, in the FDNY. Any questions for the head of your agency, but from New Yorkers or anyone else on fire safety, 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. What did we learn from the Twin Parks fire?
Commissioner Kavanagh: I think we learned that we really need to recommit ourselves to community-based public safety and that we need to ensure that already existing laws on the books need to be enforced. Both of those things were so present coming out of that fire. I was there that day and saw the tragedy unfolding. I just remember thinking what we owe the victims of that fire is a recommitment to the fire safety education within communities and also ensuring the laws we already have on the books are being enforced.
I think you've seen that in the months and now a year following the fire, the cross-agency collaboration with HPD, and the significant spike in the number of fire safety education events. We're doing particularly community-based, working with local church leaders, local elected officials, making sure we're actually communicating with the people who live in the buildings that are most at risk.
Brian Lehrer: Although the fire began on the third floor at Twin Parks due to a space heater setting a mattress ablaze, apparently, the victims mostly lived on upper floors and died from smoke inhalation, not burns. Remind us, how do incidents like this occur? Let's use this anniversary period to remind people of the basics there and what we should all know if we live in high-rise buildings.
Commissioner Kavanagh: I think as you mentioned, one of the notable things about that fire, which is actually true with many fires and many critical injuries and deaths, is that smoke is its deadliest fire. You can be burned, but you can also be succumbed by smoke inhalation. It's really critical, A, that you know the type of building that you live in. You know whether or not you should shelter in place or evacuate, that you close the door behind you.
That is the most critical way to keep smoke inside the single apartment where these events typically begin, and that you have a working smoke alarm, and so that you're alerted right away to an emergency, especially one that may happen in the middle of the night. Those are some of the key ways that New Yorkers can keep themselves and their families safe in case of a fire, prevent a fire, but also be able to survive a fire incident in their building.
Brian Lehrer: After Twin Parks, my building handed out fire safety notices, magnetic notices, that we're supposed to post on the inside of our apartment doors. Is that universal in the city?
Commissioner Kavanagh: It should be universal. Like any place in the city, we don't always find that it's consistent. One of the ways that we've really tried to get directly to residents of the buildings in addition to the landlords and enforcement is collaborating with the Department of Education to get to families and kids that bring that information home. We're trying to come at those instructions as many ways as possible, not just enforcement but also education.
Brian Lehrer: The tips on this fire safety notice that I now know much better honestly because our building handed it out and said we need to keep it posted on the inside of our apartment doors because there could even be FDNY inspections, one of the things that I learned is that there are different rules if the fire begins in your apartment or if it's originating elsewhere in the building. I wonder if you could go over just a few of those basics just for everybody's knowledge.
Commissioner Kavanagh: Yes, I think that's a really critical point. It also matters what kind of building you live in, whether or not your building is fireproof. If the fire is in your apartment, you should evacuate and you should close the door behind you. That will keep you and your family safe and it will keep the other residents of your building safe by containing the fire to your apartment. If you live in the apartment that the fire did not start in and you're in a fireproof building, you should close your door and shelter in place.
The fire is most likely going to be contained to that apartment and that your greatest risk at that point is smoke inhalation. Staying in your apartment keeps you and your family safe from that risk. I think it's really critical for New Yorkers. Certainly, fires like this are a reminder to me every day to go home and talk to my family about these things. I think it's a reminder to New Yorkers in such a complex city with so many different building types to understand where we live, what the building construction is, and what to do if an emergency were to happen to keep--
Brian Lehrer: Yes, you said so many different building types. I think Susan in Elmhurst is calling about a particular building type. Susan, you're on WNYC with Fire Commissioner Kavanagh. Hi.
Susan: Hi, thank you for taking my call. I live in a building that was built in 1929 and it's considered combustible. The landlord has recently taken the smoke detectors out from the hallways in the stairwell where the-- It's a walk-up. In between all the floors in the hallway outside the individual apartments, there were smoke detectors, which would alert people.
Let's say somebody has taken their smoke detector inside their apartment down for whatever reason or their batteries have expired and they haven't put in a new one, it would alert them. From my understanding, the law has been changed so that he's not required to keep a smoke detector in the common area in the hallway. I'm wondering why that would be changed, especially in a combustible building.
Commissioner Kavanagh: These laws generally changed with the requirement to put something that's more safe in place. I can't speak to your building specifically without knowing the exact address and nature of the building. Generally, there's something else that the landlord would be required to put in such as sprinklers. What I would encourage strongly is that you call 311 and report that because it's in a common area that the local fire company can come over and they can look at it.
They can ensure whether or not smoke alarm should be up there or whether or not the landlord has put another safety measure in place, depending on the year of the building construction and construction type as you mentioned. I definitely would encourage you to report that one to 311 so that our local companies can come out and also encourage as you mentioned to make sure that every resident has a working smoke alarm in their apartment. In the interim, that is the single greatest way to save your own life or the life of your family in a fire, is to make sure you have a working smoke alarm in your apartment. We can provide those to you, fdnysmart.org. You can go online and actually request one from the FDNY.
Brian Lehrer: You give out personal smoke detectors?
Commissioner Kavanagh: We do give out detectors. We work with the American Red Cross to provide smoke detectors and carbon monoxide alarms.
Brian Lehrer: Were you just saying that individual tenants can call the fire department and request an inspection of their building, not just management can do it?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Correct. Anyone can call 311 and report a dangerous condition. The local company, especially if it's in a common area where we do have the right to inspect, can come, check out, and make sure whether or not that building is in compliance with current law based on the construction of that building. We can't enter into individual apartments.
That's actually where we push education the most because we do find that that is the single most impactful thing people can do is have a smoke alarm in their own residence. They do not need to only call management. We encourage them to call management, but they can also call the city and have their local company come out and look at the common areas of the building.
Brian Lehrer: Mary Pat on Staten Island, you're on WNYC with Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh. Hi, Mary Pat.
Mary Pat: Hello, thank you very much. Is there a standard weight for the stairwell doors in an apartment building? Because I can barely open mine and I have reported it to the borough president, to the state senator. I don't get any answer, but I need to thrust my entire weight to the door before it opens. Other stairwells, the door is easier. Is there a standard?
Brian Lehrer: Interesting. The stairwell doors we remember were a factor in the Twin Parks fire as well. The fact that the stairwell doors were open allowed that smoke to spread to upper floors. I know we've been instructed to keep those stairwell doors closed, so maybe they need to be a certain weight so that they really shut. I don't know. What do you say to Mary Pat's question?
Commissioner Kavanagh: There are some standards for the doors, but a standard weight is not one of them. I do wonder whether or not there are other issues. As she mentioned, only one door is having issues and the others aren't. I don't know if there maybe is another issue with the door. It's hinge that might be at play here that maybe she could talk to management about, or can also call 311. Again, we can come by and inspect any common area, but there's not a standard weight.
Brian Lehrer: Also on the question of different kinds of buildings and in different neighborhoods, Twin Parks, people may or may not remember, was an affordable housing building, was, as The New York Times wrote it up at the time, the heart of the Gambian immigrant community. In the fire, most of the people who died were African immigrants or their children.
According to the Times, they quoted Haji Dukuray, who lost her niece and husband and three children in the fire quoted her saying, "It's always in our neighborhood. Nothing against the Upper East Side, but we don't hear about that there." Are there fire safety disparities that low-income people of color are facing in New York City and is it something you're addressing as fire commissioner?
Commissioner Kavanagh: It is definitely something we're incredibly focused in on. We make most of our decisions around fire safety education based on maps of the city where we know the most at-risk communities are. One of the greatest risks for fire danger is building construction. That is concentrated in lower-income neighborhoods. That is where the vast majority of our education outreach is focused for that exact reason to ensure that we are considering equity and we're considering risk when we are educating communities. That is absolutely a number one priority for us.
I also think we are incredibly focused in on making sure those language barriers can be crossed. As she mentioned, that building was largely immigrant. Our fire safety teams are always consistently staffed by bilingual speakers. They will often work with local community leaders if they don't have someone who can speak the local language to make sure that the information actually is getting across and a conversation is happening in both directions, not just passing out literature but actually speaking to our neighbors and educating them about how to stay safe.
Brian Lehrer: I see that last week, FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, announced the plan to investigate fires like the one at Twin Parks and identify other buildings at risk and issue recommendations. I see that you met with Lori Moore-Merrell, head of the US Fire Administration. What's your reaction to FEMA's plan? How will FEMA and your agency work together to prevent fires in the city?
Commissioner Kavanagh: We are incredibly supportive of what FEMA's looking to do. We have a great relationship between the US fire administrator, FEMA, and the FDNY. We had actually already shared all of the data that we had gathered from Twin Parks with them. That had already happened. What Lori Moore-Merrell and I discussed last week was making sure that happens in every fire across the entire country because it's really that data can be so powerful. We were just talking about which communities are most at risk.
The more data that we have to put into those decisions, the better outcomes we are going to have when we're talking about fire safety, building, construction. Anything that city, state, or federal government is considering is better informed by data. We're very excited about this partnership. I think it'll allow what we did here in New York to happen everywhere, especially in locales where they may not have the resources that we have. The federal government can step in and make sure that we're all sharing all of the data about the fatal fires that occur in these urban environments.
Brian Lehrer: A lot of our listeners have a question about something else fire safety-related that's been in the news. I'm going to let Mike in Manhattan do the honors of asking this question that a lot of people have. Mike, you're on WNYC with Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh.
Mike: Yes. Hi, thanks for taking my call. This is Mike House. I'm an architect working in the city and I actually live in an affordable housing co-op on the Lower East Side. We've had a spirited debate actually at our co-op meeting last night about how to interpret and put into action the recent, I guess, fire safety bulletin that came out around e-bikes and other battery-powered vehicles and their storage in the building. Where we left it was we're just going to follow the interim guidance and the bulletin and await new regulations that are likely to come out addressing the issue more specifically. I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit to that.
Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Mike. Commissioner?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Absolutely. Yes, that's such an important topic. I also love a spirited co-op meeting. Lots of those happening all over the city. You know what? I--
Brian Lehrer: Some are better than others.
Commissioner Kavanagh: Some are better than others, yes. I think what you're speaking to is incredibly important, which is, this is technology that has leaped ahead of the regulations, but here's what the FDNY would give folks guidance on. One, try to make sure that every e-bike in the building, and that your building residents know this as well, is UL-certified. That is one of the most substantial ways you can make sure that the bike is not at high risk for having one of these fires.
Part of that is ensuring that you are using both the battery and the charger that came with the device and not doing-- There are some of these bike shops. They're doing swaps. They're giving you a battery that had come with the device that is incredibly risky. Finally, making sure that no one is charging a device in a hallway or an area that is the only way out of either an apartment or the building.
In many of these deadly e-bike fires, that's what we've seen over and over is that a bike was charging in a location that would be the only way out of an apartment. These fires when they occur are quite large. They don't smolder. They burst suddenly into flame and would immediately block whatever area they were in. If people are charging bikes, it should always be when someone is awake and can monitor that bike, but it should never, ever be in a location that you would need to exit the building or exit the apartment. If people do those things as you mentioned, other regulations are coming.
We are working incredibly aggressively with the Consumer Product Safety Commission to take some of these non-compliant devices off of websites like Amazon and to stop selling some of them. Even while we're doing that, there are devices already existing in people's apartments. We really encourage folks to make sure they're following all those rules, that they're not charging these in an exit, that they're not charging them when they're unmonitored, and that they're always making sure they're using a UL-certified device as it came out of the package with the battery and the charger that it came with.
Brian Lehrer: This is so anxiety-producing. How can somebody know if they have a lithium-ion battery that is susceptible to suddenly bursting out in flames or if they don't?
Commissioner Kavanagh: That UL certification is one of the most critical ways to know that. No device is 100% guaranteed, but I'd point out that there are many other devices we use on a daily basis that do have lithium-ion batteries where we don't have this problem. We do know some of it is about unregulated devices or non-certified devices. Really making sure they have that UL certification that they're using the charger and the battery that came with the bike, not purchasing a third-party battery from a bike shop or anywhere else.
You can also do an inspection of your own bike. Any battery that has a dent or any damage to it is at greater susceptibility for a fire. If you've been riding your bike and you're all over the city and you look at the battery and it has a dent or a crack in it, that is a key sign it needs to be returned to where it came from.
Brian Lehrer: As you say, there are other appliances that use lithium-ion batteries. Cordless vacuum cleaners are increasingly common and use them. I guess that's another one where if you're going to buy one, you should maybe try to buy it from the manufacturer, not even on Amazon because you don't know if you're going to get a knockoff, that kind of thing?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Yes, you want to make sure you're buying it directly from the source, but also that UL certification is critical. That will tell you whether or not you have a device from a manufacturer who knows what they're doing and has had this device certified or if it's from someone who may be just making these without a lot of information or expertise in how to do so.
Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio and live streaming at wnyc.org. A few more minutes with New York City Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh. Molly in Kensington, you're on WNYC. Hi, Molly.
Molly: Oh, hi.
Brian Lehrer: Hi there.
Molly: I am calling to ask the commissioner what she plans to do on the pretty horrifying gender disparity in the FDNY.
Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. The numbers that I've seen, Commissioner, and you're the first woman commissioner of the FDNY, tell me if this is nearly accurate because it made my eyes pop out when I read it last night. There are 141 women in the fire department out of 17,000 firefighters. Is that roughly right?
Commissioner Kavanagh: There are 11,000 firefighters, so I'll just change your formula a little bit.
Brian Lehrer: Okay, sure.
Commissioner Kavanagh: Yes, that is correct.
Brian Lehrer: Wow, so why?
Commissioner Kavanagh: I think there's a few things I'd love to point out here. First of all, I think you can imagine, as the first woman, I also came to the department to help diversify the ranks. One of those things that I was able to accomplish was tripling the number of women. Even though we need to get much further, I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of being the first woman. I follow a long line of female trailblazers in this agency who have opened the door for me. I hope I can open the door further and that, a decade from now, we can see a much smaller gap than we're seeing today.
I also want to point out that that is in the fire suppression ranks and that is where our diversity efforts are focused because of that gap. We also have EMS here in the FDNY, who is an incredibly important first responder agency. They have many, many women. They're about 40% female. It would be a mistake to not give them the credit where credit is due on the diversity that they have in their ranks, and that those women are going out every day and working on the front lines in EMS.
Certainly, when it comes to fire suppression, we are looking to bring more women into the agency and inspire more women to follow this non-traditional career. I hope my presence but also the presence of many other really incredible female firefighters who blaze this trail are the thing that is going to make the difference in addition to all of our recruitment and retention efforts.
Brian Lehrer: To any skeptics out there who might think for those fire suppression, what we generally think of as firefighter jobs, you need a lot of physical strength. On average, it's going to be men more than women. How do you correct for that? Isn't it individual strength test knowing what the needs are or what would you say to assure people about that?
Commissioner Kavanagh: You know what I'd say. There's one test for all our firefighters. What I'd say is I work with many of these women day in, day out. There are many women who absolutely have that physical strength. It's definitely thought of as a physical job. It certainly is an incredibly physically difficult job. It is not for everyone, men and women alike. It is a unique job that requires a lot of physicality. I see the women doing it every day, so I know for sure that they can. I know there are lots of girls out there in New York City who play sports, who are incredibly physically fit. Many who've gone into the military that I know can do this job because I've seen them do it.
Brian Lehrer: That's on gender. On race, in September of last year, Gothamist reported that, at the time, three-quarters of the department were white men citing a, "Pandemic pause and hiring low retirement rates among existing firefighters and a high number of prospective candidates who take other jobs during the years' long waiting period to join the profession as reasons contributing to the lack of diversity." I know you supported the city council's proposed legislation to diversify the FDNY's firefighter ranks. What's the agency doing to welcome not just more women but also more people of color into the department?
Commissioner Kavanagh: That is one of our top goals. As you mentioned, I supported the city council legislation. I came to the FDNY eight years ago to run the first recruitment campaign following the settlement of a lawsuit. That produced the most diverse list in department history that we are currently hiring off of. We are committed to racial and gender diversity. We are committed to getting residents of the five boroughs part of our FDNY family here.
We have seen that change again over time. As I mentioned, we tripled the number of women. We also substantially increased the number of Black, Latino, and Asian firefighters on the job, but we have more work to do. I think we're in a great position with our current mayor to do that. We've made a lot of progress and we plan on making a lot more in the next few years.
Brian Lehrer: There's apparently a lot of turnover in the NYPD, not so much in the FDNY?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Not so much in the FDNY. People really love this job and they stay with it for a very long time, so hiring is a much slower process here. As you mentioned, it takes many years longer to wait for an opening. When we have those openings, we are working off of a civil service list. That is the list that is incredibly diverse that we promulgated a few years ago. We will see that change happen. Our turnover is a little slower than our sister agency.
Brian Lehrer: One more call. Janine in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with New York City Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh. Hi, Janine.
Janine: Hi, guys. I'm a longtime listener. Thank you so much for taking my call. My wife works for the FDNY EMT side. My question is about not only what the last caller said about the disparity within minorities, but the wage disparity between the FDNY EMT and how low it is, it's disgracefully low, and how high it is on the FDNY fire side. What can we do to raise the salary of the FDNY EMT? I just encourage all listeners to go online and find out how low it is and how many minorities are in the FDNY EMT and how sad it is, how little they get paid for how hard the job is. It's also physically demanding as well.
Brian Lehrer: Janine, do you have any of those paid disparity numbers off the top of your head?
Janine: Yes, I do. Everyone could just go right to the FDNY salary for EMT. You would see that the starting salary would be like 45-- Let's see right here. I'm just going to pull it up. I think it's 45,000-- Sorry. For the FDNY EMT, it starts out at $39,000. If you're FDNY fire side, it's $45,000, right? In five years for the FDNY fire-side, it raises to $110,000 a year. For the FDNY EMT side, it only goes the maximum you could get is between $59,000 and $76,000. That's a $33,000 difference.
Where are all the minorities and all the women in the FDNY EMT side? I support both sides. I have friends that work for the fire side. It's just so sad that most FDNY EMT workers have to have second jobs, right? They're working these hard jobs that are very physically demanding, carrying people, constantly lifting, going into dangerous situations, sitting in their car all day long in those vans.
They're not allowed to go indoors for those long periods of time. When you see those people, they're sitting in their vans because they're out on the streets waiting for that next call. They have extremely hard jobs and they don't get paid enough. If you work after five years on the FDNY fire side, $110,000 a year. If you work on the FDNY EMT side, maximum you could even possibly make would be $76,000. Why [unintelligible 00:29:34] FDNY. I know that the union is strong--
Brian Lehrer: You make a compelling case. Let's get a response. First of all, Commissioner, are those the numbers as you understand them? If so, is that okay?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Yes, she's pulling those off of our website, which we're open about. Janine and I do not disagree. I was involved in the collective bargaining for the EMS contract in the last cycle where we got the single greatest increase in their pay that they have received in the history of EMS. It's not enough, but I think it's a down payment on my commitment to this issue, which is wholehearted. I believe in good-paying jobs. I believe in the work of our EMTs, our paramedics, and our firefighters. I am very committed to those collective bargaining discussions and how to correct that. It is one of my passions.
Brian Lehrer: This is a collective bargaining year, isn't it? Do I have that right?
Commissioner Kavanagh: Yes, every contract is on a different cycle, but, yes, we are entering into conversations with our unions.
Brian Lehrer: New York City Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh. Thank you for spending so much time with us. You answered a lot of listener questions, a lot of my questions. The fire safety stuff was so informative. Obviously, you care about diversity in the ranks. Thank you very much for coming on with us and continued good luck in the job.
Commissioner Kavanagh: Thank you so much. Anytime. I'm also a longtime listener, so happy to be here. [chuckles]
Brian Lehrer: Great to hear.
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