Monday Morning Politics: Schumer, Netanyahu and Biden

[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Monday morning, everyone. On the day after St. Patrick's Day, I hope anyone who celebrates enjoyed a parade or some green beer or at least some good luck. It was an unusual St. Patrick's Day politically as Ireland's Prime Minister, Leo Varadkar met with President Biden in Washington. They spoke to reporters less about Dublin or DC and more about Gaza. Listeners, if you didn't know, the Irish people have long had a reputation as perhaps the most sympathetic in Europe to the plight of the Palestinians. Addressing Biden and reporters, Prime Minister Varadkar yesterday affirmed that and gave a reason why.

Prime Minister Leo Varadkar: Mr. President, as you know, the Irish people are deeply troubled about the catastrophe that's unfolding before our eyes in Gaza. When I travel the world, leaders often ask me why the Irish have such empathy for the Palestinian people. The answer is simple. We see our history in their eyes.

Brian Lehrer: The Irish have their long history of being under occupation and they identify. If Varadkar wants something different in Gaza because he's Irish, Chuck Schumer wants it too because he's Jewish.

Chuck Schumer: My last name is Schumer, which derives from the Hebrew word Shomer, or guardian. Of course, my first responsibility is to America and to New York. As the first Jewish majority leader of the United States Senate and the highest-ranking Jewish elected official in America ever, I also feel very keenly my responsibility as a Shomer Yisrael, a guardian of the people of Israel.

Brian Lehrer: The Senate majority leader from Brooklyn, whose 45-minute floor speech on Thursday is making waves around the world, opening with that declaration of his identity before saying the Israeli government has been "too willing to tolerate the civilian toll in Gaza," as he put it, calling Prime Minister Netanyahu an obstacle to peace and calling for new elections there. On CNN's State of the Union yesterday, Netanyahu hit back at Schumer.

Prime Minister Netanyahu: I think what he said is totally inappropriate. It's inappropriate to go to a sister democracy and try to replace the elected leadership there. That's something that the Israeli public does on its own. We're not a banana republic.

Brian Lehrer: Prime Minister Netanyahu on CNN's State of the Union, and we'll start there on this March 18th with NPR congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales who covered the Schumer speech. Hi, Claudia. Thanks for coming on with us just on WNYC when you usually are speaking to hundreds of NPR stations around the country. Welcome and good morning.

Claudia Grisales: Oh, thank you so much. So good to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Before we talk about reaction in Congress, would you remind us of the larger context of Schumer's speech? Netanyahu was only one of four obstacles to peace that Schumer cited as you reported. What company did he put Netanyahu in?

Claudia Grisales: Well, it was a very difficult position that he put Netanyahu in. Of course, Schumer as we heard him say, he's the highest-ranking elected Jewish official in our country, so his words really triggered a political earthquake, if you will. It was really stunning to see Schumer make these remarks. Really, this is ultimately a culmination of quiet concerns that Democrats have been expressing about Netanyahu and the path that he's on. Some have raised concerns that it is focused on a war path. This was Schumer largely echoing a lot of those worries.

Brian Lehrer: The Netanyahu clip that we played from CNN, where he spoke back to Schumer by saying Israel is not a banana republic. That's quite a phrase. Is it clear to you how he meant that term banana republic in this context?

Claudia Grisales: Not exactly clear. It could have been a dig, perhaps, that he was trying to strike towards Schumer and his remarks, and also trying to solidify the trust that he still does have with many lawmakers, especially Republicans who could use those Schumer remarks to say they continue to stand with Israel. Perhaps they are the only party that stands with Israel. Republicans saw a real opportunity here in terms of that alignment.

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Now, listeners, we want to open up the phones on this for various of you, which we didn't get to do on Friday. Do we have Jewish listeners now who felt that Schumer spoke for you as what he called a silent majority of Jewish Americans with nuanced views on the matter? We're going to play that clip in just a second. When he used those words. He said asylum majority of Jewish Americans with nuanced views on the matter who he said have never been well represented in this country's discussions about the war in Gaza.

Anyone listening now who related to that personally or who's been having dinner table or other friends and family conversations about it, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, call or text. By the same token, any Palestinians or other listeners who consider yourself essentially pro-Palestinian, did Schumer's speech feel like a watershed moment to you? That's what the Israeli media is calling it, a watershed moment in US-Israel relations. Or not really, because he didn't call for cutting off or conditioning military aid on how Israel conducts its side of the war, just for new elections after the war starts to wind down as he put it.

212-433-WNYC. On yet another side, which Claudia just referred to, any Jewish listeners who usually vote Democratic but now feel betrayed by Schumer and might consider Republicans for Congress or president who you wouldn't have before? For any of you in any of those groups or anyone else, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 as we open the phones for the first time on the Schumer speech. 212-433-9692, call or text with NPR congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales who covered the speech for the network. Here is that other clip of Schumer from the speech also near the beginning that maybe speaks to the politics he's trying to reflect in Jewish America.

Chuck Schumer: I speak for myself, but I also speak for so many mainstream Jewish Americans, a silent majority whose nuanced views on the matter have never been well represented in this country's discussions about the war in Gaza.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia, Schumer besides being the highest ranking Jewish elected official in this country has also been a staunch supporter of Israel his whole long political career, and I think that context matters, and certainly after October 7th. Is it clear to you what caused him to give that speech now?

Claudia Grisales: I think it was a built-up of these frustrations with Netanyahu. I think Democrats are seeing a growing weakness when it comes to addressing the conflict with Israel, with Gaza, and the concerns that Israel has gone too far, if you will. We saw hundreds of thousands of voters across the country cast their ballots in Democratic primaries for uncommitted, choosing to not select a candidate. We saw this in Michigan initially where we saw the uncommitted choice gain 100,000 votes there.

I traveled with the president a few weeks ago to Illinois. We could see these large protests, the concerns in terms of the path that Israel was taking in this conflict with Gaza. Democrats are in part speaking to this frustration within their own party, that not enough support is being given to Gaza in this conflict, and Israel has truly gone too far. At one end, they are trying to address this weakness and this concern, especially in an election year. It's critical for them.

Brian Lehrer: I've heard the speech criticized as political and maybe not genuine according to his critics, for the election year, both from Republicans and from Palestinians, and others who are pro-Palestinian. People from both of those camps are saying, look, Schumer and Biden are reacting to the disaffection being felt by many younger Democrats, especially, and to the vote uncommitted movement that you just cited. Does your reporting seem to back up that those politics would be at play, not simply Schumer himself and other Democrats in Congress getting disaffected after this many months and this amount of death and destruction in Gaza?

Claudia Grisales: Yes. It could be very well a part of it. One of my colleagues suggested that perhaps Schumer is taking cover for Biden and other Democrats by taking this position. Some may say he went rogue, he's alone in this, Schumer went too far in his remarks, but in the end, there's arguments that he's trying to take cover for Democrats, and, yes, there could be some political calculations that are being made here as well in an election year that will prove to be a tough one for Democrats versus Republicans, for the White House, and on down.

Brian Lehrer: Schumer could have just said, he now supports cutting off US military aid to Israel until they start fighting the war in the more civilian conscious way that he says he wants, but he didn't. He only held that open as a possibility at some undefined point in the future. Do you have any reporting on why Schumer didn't just do that? Without that, the Palestinian or pro-Palestinian critique that it's just words has to at least be answered. The reality, it's not just Israel's war in Gaza, it's the United States war too because we're paying for it, part of it.

Rather than lecture Netanyahu or say what Schumer wants that country's electoral schedule to be, he could just take responsibility for this country and say, "That's it. We're cutting you off from our treasury until you act in accordance with the human rights standards that we the United States believe in." Do you know if he's been asked why he didn't take action on US policy that's there to be taken rather than lecture Israel on what it should do?

Claudia Grisales: It seems to me that Schumer's taking a first major step in terms of speaking out against Netanyahu, and we have heard a lot of concerns, bipartisan concerns about the money that we have directed towards Israel, that this country has directed towards this conflict, and how it's being used, and whether it should be based on certain conditions, what have you. There is one issue for Congress right now is they cannot get a foreign aid bill passed in both chambers at this time and get something to Biden's desk. That effort is stalled right now.

It could be a possibility that Schumer would be jumping too far ahead if he talked about the aid, a potential aid, additional aid that could be considered for Israel. That is still being sorted. There's still a potential the House could take up some sort of legislation. There's still a potential something could be passed out of Congress, so it's a very sensitive, touchy subject right now for members, and perhaps he's leaving the door open on what those next steps could look like, and some really tough negotiations that continue at this moment on that aid.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Ronan in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hello, Ronan.

Ronan: Hi. Brian, thank you so much for taking my call. I just wanted to say that-- I wanted to thank Senator Schumer for being so brave in giving this speech. I think it's a big deal. I'm a Jewish Democrat. I've always believed Israel's right to exist. Actually, I've been to the APAC conference before, and I believed at the beginning that the war was justified. However, I've always been very concerned that Israel is not taking Palestinian welfare seriously enough.

For whatever reason, maybe the way that we support Israel might enable that. I appreciate Schumer for being brave. I think that for better or for worse, actions of Israel reflect on all of us Jews in America even though we never get to vote on elections in Israel. Schumer taking his platform and using it this way, affirming his support for Israel, while also criticizing Netanyahu's policies is brave, is necessary, and I hope it leads to positive change.

Brian Lehrer: Ronan, thank you very much for your call. John in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, John.

John: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hello.

John: Hi. John calling from Manhattan. Pretty much just I wanted to say, voice the exact same thing that gentleman before me just said. Growing up in Manhattan, it's hard to wrap my head around so much hate between people. I was born in 1965. I've seen Blacks, Puerto Ricans, Japanese, all types, and I have no hate in my heart towards anybody. To try to understand what's happening there is beyond, I think, any Americans comprehension really. I think that Chuck Schumer voiced my opinion, and I will not change my vote to Republican, of course, from Democrat because of what he said, and I think Benjamin Netanyahu, like Donald Trump wants this war to continue because when the investigations start about how October 7th happened, I think he's going to be in some deep shit.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, John, we needed to dump you there because I know it was an accident, but you used that word that we can't use on the radio when you said Netanyahu is going to be in deep something. We'll just say, John in Manhattan thinks Netanyahu is going to be in deep something when the investigation start. On another side of this, listener texts, "I am a Jewish woman living in New Jersey. I was deeply disappointed in Senator Chuck Schumer's speech. I think that what he did was shameful. I voted for him when I lived in Brooklyn." Here is a Brooklyn caller. Alan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Alan.

Alan: Good morning. Thanks, Brian. My feelings are mixed about this, but I mirror a lot of opinions already expressed. On the downside, Schumer may end up emboldening people in Hamas to just double down with their violence and be more resistant to a compromise at the bargaining table. In general, I feel that Netanyahu has only continued to rule in a way that is best for his next re-election and does not have a vision for what's really viable long-term.

If he would think in terms of the next 80 years and realize that just as we made peace with the citizens of Japan and Germany after a brutal war, and we don't blame the grandchildren of the combatants then for what happened, there should be some scenario where we can envision a future with the people who now live in that land of all races and religions and work toward that goal. I don't think Netanyahu thinks that way.

Brian Lehrer: Alan, thank you very much. Another listener texts. "Hi, I'm a Jewish New Yorker and a Zionist and a Democrat. Netanyahu has to go. He didn't protect Israel from what happened on October 7th and is being too aggressive in a way that isn't good for humanity, for Israel, or for Jews." Jonathan in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Doing all right. What you got?

Jonathan: I'm quite disappointed with Chuck Schumer. I think that people need to know or be aware that Chuck Schumer, when the Iran deal came through, verified that there will be enough votes that they will pass and then pretended like he's against it. This is who Chuck Schumer really is. He's not a shomer of Israel. He's quite the opposite. I think we have 136 kidnapees that he needs to put all his efforts to get them released immediately without condition before speaking about everything else. Israel passes hundreds of trucks with food that are all being taken by the Hamas, and they shoot their own people in order not to give them the food. The whole situation there is completely different than what is being reported. It's very sad to see that Chuck Schumer pretends to be Jewish but acts not in the interest of the kidnapees or Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Of course, there would be factual questions about what you said about Hamas killing Palestinians rather than letting the Palestinians get the food that's coming in, or that Israel is allowing so many trucks to come in. Just on what you said about Schumer and about the hostages, the hostage families in Israel are starting to also call for a ceasefire because they think Netanyahu's war plan, the way he's been fighting it, and maybe his plans to go into Rafah are against the interest of getting Hamas to release the hostages. Do you feel differently?

Jonathan: I think that there's a very, very few members of the kidnapees that are actually taking part, and I could not judge them. They're under immense stress. I think the government of Israel betrayed its own people both on October 7th. There's enough evidence for that, and also, now dragging their feet and not attacking. Israel, just so you know, in the six-day war, Israel annihilated four different countries with massive armies. In Yom Kippur war, we annihilated two countries, even though we were surprised and attacked in the most horrific ways. Here, you're fighting against a group of people that don't have no tanks, no airplanes, and they're dragging this war on purpose, just like they're dragging the Ukrainian war on purpose. This is not a normal thing.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying Israel is dragging out the war on purpose, Israel?

Jonathan: Absolutely. You could have taken down Gaza in a matter of hours.

Brian Lehrer: Why wouldn't they have if that's the case? Because that's Netanyahu's stated goal is to destroy Hamas, so why wouldn't they have?

Jonathan: I think the intent is to eventually weaken the military and lose as many soldiers as possible so that when they're trying to usher in with a new world order is going to be taking place. This is maybe a conversation I'm not allowed to have.

Brian Lehrer: You're allowed to have it, but, yes, people will say, okay, there's a conspiracy theory. Jonathan, thank you very much. Another view, I think, from Sharif in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Sharif.

Sharif: Hi, Brian. Good morning. I think it's important one to separate the Judaic safe, being a Jew, and then the state of Israel. I think people like to combine both but-- The state of Israel doesn't speak for all Jews. Let's get that straight. Number two, I think blaming Netanyahu is just basically cover that the Democrats or the Americans, say, officials are trying to provide for Israel. I think it's more about blaming Israel and allowing Israel-- I'm sorry, blaming Netanyahu in order to allow Israel to continue what they need to do.

I think it's not a matter of what Israel is doing. I think it's a matter of how it's doing. It was just making the Democrats look bad. I think overall, Biden, most of the government officials taking AIPAC money would be fine. With everything that Israel's been doing as far as trying to expand their control of land, and the apartheid state, and the racism exists that this bombing is just out of control and it's just making them look bad during an election year. That's all I can say.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Sharif, thank you very much. Claudia and listeners who got lost in that series of phone calls and texts, I'll read one more text. This one very simply supporting Schumer and supporting a cutoff of aid. For the moment it says, "Friends, don't let friends drive drunk or kill neighbors." Thank you, Senator Schumer. Our guest is Claudia Grisales, NPR congressional correspondent who covered Schumer's floor speech on Thursday.

Claudia, not surprisingly, quite an array of phone calls, an array of opinions in those calls from people who like what Schumer did to the caller second to last who felt like he was betraying his fellow Jews and never really was as pro-Israel as he claimed to be. To the final caller, more pro-Palestinian who said that Schumer is just giving Netanyahu the cover to continue fighting the war the way he's fighting it by criticizing Netanyahu as a person. I guess that reflects the complex politics of the moment for Chunk Schumer and everybody else, right?

Claudia Grisales: Right, exactly. It just is a reminder of how Democrats are trying to thread the needle here, and how complex as you say this issue is, and what a delicate balance they're trying to strike, especially in what appears to be a very close election year in terms of the fight for the White House and congressional races.

Brian Lehrer: Folks, we'll continue in a minute with NPR congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales who covered Chuck Schumer's floor speech on the war in Gaza. More of your calls and texts. We'll get to the Biden and St. Patrick's Day angle on this too, and maybe even some other congressional news. 212-433-WNYC. Stay with us.

[MUSIC]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with NPR congressional correspondent Claudia Grisales who covered Chuck Schumer's floor speech on the war in Gaza. By the way, we're going to get with Claudia to at least one other political story that might also be seen as a political watershed. Mike Pence, the other day, this may have gotten lost in all the news about Gaza and local news. Mike Pence said he’s not going to endorse Donald Trump for president. Here is part of Republican leader Mitch McConnell's response to Schumer on the floor on Thursday after Schumer spoke.

Mitch McConnell: Make no mistake. The Democratic Party doesn't have an anti-Bibi problem. It has an anti-Israel problem.

Brian Lehrer: There's Mitch McConnell hoping to capitalize for the Republicans with Jewish voters, and we'll get to that. President Biden talked about the issue, too, yesterday on what would normally be a more festive and ceremonial St. Patrick's Day appearance with the Prime Minister, also called the Taoiseach of Ireland. We played the clip earlier of that Prime Minister or Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar saying the Irish people identify with Palestinians because Ireland too had its history of being under occupation, and so Biden said this.

President Biden: Leticia and I agree about the urgent need to increase humanitarian aid in Gaza and get a ceasefire deal that brings the hostages home and move toward a two-state solution.

Brian Lehrer: As the New York Times points out today, while Mr. Biden has struck a sharper tone recently, like Schumer, the White House has said there are no plans to leverage military aid to Israel. Claudia, you're a congressional correspondent, not a White House or presidential or campaign one, but anything you can report on where Biden thinks this goes next from his standpoint as Netanyahu seems impervious to any of these new rebukes as Netanyahu himself said on CNN yesterday?

Claudia Grisales: That's going to be a very difficult path forward in terms of how the President balances the concerns that surround Netanyahu combined with these recent remarks from majority leader Chuck Schumer. In terms of that path forward, that is what remains to be seen in terms of how he tries to strike that ballot. It's going to be a very, very difficult road ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a tricky Democratic Party political calculus now specifically on which could cost the more congressional seats or the presidential election losing pro-Israel Jewish voters or losing pro-Palestinian voters who are newly energized and alienated in an election salient way around the issue as we see in the uncommitted votes and presidential primaries? Even though they think Trump would almost certainly be worse, do you think there are, or do you have reporting that indicates democratic strategists or meeting and looking at polling, which might be very difficult on this to figure? Are we going to lose more congressional districts or swing states in the presidential by alienating a certain number of Jews or by alienating a certain number of Palestinian supporters?

Claudia Grisales: This is definitely a concern for Democrats, and I imagine that many are assessing the impact, the damage control potential in terms of what they could do in terms of addressing the concerns on both sides of this issue, and what's going to be most beneficial in the end in terms of the political approach that they take here. It is going to be a very tough test for Democrats, and this is what they're trying to figure out at this moment.

Brian Lehrer: It's a very difficult calculus, and I guess it goes district by district, it goes state by state, and control of the Senate is also up for grabs this election year. For you as a congressional correspondent, are you watching any states in particular that one party or the other is hoping to flip?

Claudia Grisales: Yes. For example, when it comes to the Senate races, I'm watching very closely the state of Arizona where that's going to be a very tough battle for that seat. As we know, Kirsten Sinema, the independent former Democratic member resigned her seat in terms of not running for reelection again, although she was facing a very tough reelection fight if she was going to run again, especially as an independent. We know that Democrats are really eyeing this state as an opportunity to regain that seat.

We know a House member, representative Gallego is running in that seat, but he's facing a really tough match with Kari Lake, the Republican who has been on the Hill, who has visited Capitol Hill recently to meet with members and build up support in all spaces of her party in terms of trying to see if she can try and pull off a win in this state. Arizona is definitely one of those key Senate races I'll be watching.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a few more callers in here reacting to Schumer's speech. Kiki on the upper west side of Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Kiki.

Kiki: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I was thrilled with Schumer's speech. I'm not thrilled with where we are yet with not tightening on the aid to Israel, but I think that there's some parallels. I remember when Joe Biden was vice president and he blundered and said something about gay marriage before Barack Obama was ready to say it. It was putting it out there first. I feel like Schumer is doing that for Joe Biden. What really drives me nuts is people that are saying that they're not going to vote for Biden and that-- The Democratic Party is educatable. They're moving in the right direction.

They're not there yet and it's frustrating because people in Gaza are suffering horribly and war is madness, period. I do believe that you have more of a chance of getting policy to change with Joe Biden. That if you listen to scholars like Masha Gessen and others saying that somebody who is an autocrat who gets a second term or who's a wannabe autocrat who gets a second term will certainly be it. People say, "Well, we lived through Trump before. We can live through him again and not vote for Biden to teach him a lesson, then the country will really change, and then you're really not going to have a chance to change policy.

I think that we're moving in the right direction. It's not moving as fast as any of us want. I think that it's insanity, what Israel is doing. Israel does not represent Jews all over the place, but it certainly reflects on us all over the place. I'm just horrified at how much antisemitism has soared. It's just at least somebody is talking a little bit of sanity. I like more what Bernie Sanders is saying. The comedian Judy Gold always makes a joke about Chuck Schumer, that he looks like he's reading the mourners Scottish. He is the top Jew in the government. Maybe Bernie would argue about that, but it's great that he's saying these things, and hopefully, it will move the needle a little bit.

Brian Lehrer: What's the Bernie Sanders position that you're referring to?

Kiki: I think Bernie has said something about limiting military aid unless things change. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

Brian Lehrer: No, you're exactly right on that. In fact, why don't I get your take on that, Claudia, covering Congress. Do you know if Schumer's been asked directly, why don't you take the next step and do what another very prominent Jewish American US Senator is calling for in Bernie Sanders and condition military aid on their behavior?

Claudia Grisales: Schumer has been asked about this, and it's really unclear whether he would go along with such a plan, but we have been hearing about this from other members of Congress as well, who want to see conditions placed on aid for Israel. Like many issues tied up in the debate over foreign aid for Israel, for other countries, because a big consideration is bundling this aid with aid for Ukraine and other allies is whether to provide this aid at all. This is one of many sticking points for this potential legislation in terms of providing this foreign aid to Israel that is getting snagged and stalling out the potential for this aid to move through Congress.

Brian Lehrer: Amy in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Amy.

Amy: Hi, Brian. I know you've seen my buttons that have been--

Brian Lehrer: I remember meeting you. I don't remember your buttons, so which buttons are you referring to?

Amy: All right. I have a set on a bag that I wear too. I've gone through demonstrations against how Israel was conducting this war. I've had the button for a long time, but the one that at the top say things like pro-Palestine, Pro peace, and they go down to the one at the bottom that one says, "I am a Zionist," and it overlaps with one that says Stereotype buster, because Zionists are not a monolith. I consider myself a Zionist for peace and human rights and very much including Palestinian rights. I've gone to rallies with the bag especially [unintelligible 00:33:50] like the Israeli consulate.

Brian Lehrer: What would you say to critics who have been more vocal, or at least getting more attention since October 7th who say you can't really be a Zionist and be pro-Palestinian, because Zionism essentially is taking the land of other people who already lived there. For you who calls yourself against the occupation, against the way Israel is conducting the war, but a Zionist, how for yourself, do you reconcile that?

Amy: I think if Israel can exist and not do the kinds of things it's doing. There have been other administrations before Netanyahu that did it better. I appreciated Senator Schumer's speech.

Brian Lehrer: Right, but on you as a Zionist, what does that mean to you?

Amy: That I want Israel to exist. I want it to be the case so we can go when we need to or when we want to, but not to be-- I think that can happen without having to oppress. I'm not sure what word is worse than oppress, Palestinians and other peoples living there, living in the same area. I want to mention organizations like Standing Together in which Israelis-- I think not just not just Palestinians, but Arabs more generally are working together for peace.

Brian Lehrer: We are going to have-- As a matter of fact, next Monday is when they're coming on, an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian working with the group, Standing Together coming on the show together. That'll be next Monday. Amy, thank you very much for your call. Listener asks in a text message, Claudia, "Has Kirsten Gillibrand, new York's other senator, said anything in support of Schumer?" As regular listeners to this show know, because Gillibrand comes on with us regularly, she has been staunchly in support of Israel since October 7th and has been very reluctant to criticize anything that they've done. She has started to criticize a little bit. I don't want to mischaracterize her, but after Schumer went further, is there any sense that Gillibrand is now aligning with him?

Claudia Grisales: There is not at this moment. In terms of the timing of those remarks, oftentimes, what reporters will do on Capitol Hill is will talk to members who are in session. It happens that members were largely not in session as of the time that speech was given on Thursday. There's little time to talk to members directly. It's been pretty clear that Democrats have been largely quiet in terms of responding to Schumer's remarks. We imagine when the Senate comes back later this week, we'll hear a lot more from Senate Democrats then as well as House Democrats in terms of how they're going to thread the needle in their cases when it comes to this issue.

Brian Lehrer: Another point of view from the last two we got on the phones, listener writes. Mark from Brooklyn, "Been a long time fan of Chuck Schumer, but I believe this time he is off target. Poll after poll in Israel indicate that the majority of Israelis do want Mr. Netanyahu to continue the campaign in Gaza, perhaps with even more force and to even reduce the aid going into Gaza as some additional leverage against Hamas. Turning this war strategy into a purely Netanyahu objective is dishonest, in my opinion." Writes that caller, Mark from Brooklyn. We've just got a couple of minutes left, Claudia, and I am going to change the subject to Mike Pence. As I mentioned, another big story coming out of national politics in the last few days, he said he is not going to support Donald Trump. Did that come as a surprise to many Republicans?

Claudia Grisales: It may have, just because we've seen members such as Senate Minority leader Mitch McConnell say they would support the former president as the nominee for the party. Even though folks like McConnell said, "I'll endorse whoever is nominated," McConnell had some very strong words for the former president when the president had to undergo his final Senate impeachment trial. He pointed to voters, he pointed to the justice system to resolving the Trump problem in a sense.

Maybe it was a bit of a surprise, but when you look at the evolution of Mike Pence and his place in the Republican Party ever since January 6th, he made that faded decision not to go along with the then president's plans to try to help him overturn the election results in 2020. That began a new political journey for Pence. He even tried to run against the president in terms of the Republican primary at one point. He has spoken out against Donald Trump.

It's pretty clear that he is sticking to his position that Trump made a massive error in judgment, especially at the end of his term, and that he does not deserve another opportunity to be in the Oval Office again. He's very much on an island on this in this moment in terms of many top Republicans from the Trump administration. In terms of his evolution, it was clearly pointing in this direction, that he would not endorse the president again.

Brian Lehrer: Any other congressional Republicans, based on your reporting, echoing Pence? Like if we've been talking about Schumer giving cover to other Democrats to be more critical of Netanyahu and the way Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza, does Pence, in a way, give cover to other evangelicals or other congressional Republicans of any stripe to come out and say, "Look, I'm a real Republican, but what Donald Trump did on January 6th is just unconscionable, and I can't support him." Even though we should make clear, Pence said he's certainly not voting for Joe Biden either. Or is Pence really on an island, as you put it?

Claudia Grisales: Right now, at this moment, he is, but as you mentioned, perhaps he's providing cover for other Republicans who will come and speak out. Of course, we know of some who continue to keep their stance, such as Liz Cheney, the former member of Congress, former member of the January 6th Select Committee in the House, who continue to speak out against former President Trump. Perhaps Pence will inspire other Republicans to follow his lead, but that remains to be seen.

Brian Lehrer: Claudia Grisales, NPR congressional correspondent. Thanks for giving us this time this morning. We really appreciate it.

Claudia Grisales: Thank you. Really enjoyed it.

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.