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The latest cookbook from Milk Street founder Christopher Kimball is all about noodles! He joins us to discuss Milk Street Noodles: Secrets to the World’s Best Noodles, from Fettuccine Alfredo to Pad Thai to Miso Ramen, and take your calls.
Pearl Couscous Pilaf with Artichokes, Green Olives and Dill
Start to finish: 55 minutes (30 minutes active)
Servings: 4
Despite being cooked like a grain, pearl couscous, which also goes by the names Israeli couscous and ptitim, actually is a small, round pasta made from semolina. In this pilaf it gets a brief toast, bringing out sweet, nutty notes. We love the convenience of frozen artichoke hearts. Canned artichoke work, too; a 14-ounze can contains a little less than the amount called for here, but works fine. Pomegranate molasses, a thick syrup-like condiment made of concentrated pomegranate juice, provides sweet-tart notes that pair perfectly with warm allspice and briny olive. For added pops of color and fresh, tangy flavor, sprinkle a few tablespoons of pomegranate seeds over the dish just before serving.
1 ½ cups pearl couscous
4 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil, divided
½ cup sliced almonds
1 large yellow onion, halved and thinly sliced
2 medium garlic cloves, thinly sliced
Kosher salt and ground black pepper
2 cups thawed frozen artichoke hearts, chopped (see headnote)
½ teaspoon ground allspice
½ cup pitted green olives, chopped
1 cup lightly packed fresh dill, chopped
2 teaspoons pomegranate molasses, plus more to serve
In a 12-inch skillet over medium-high, toast the couscous, stirring occasionally, until golden brown, 3 to 5 minutes. Transfer to a small bowl; set aside. In the same skillet over medium, add 2 tablespoon oil and the almonds. Cook, stirring often, until the almonds are golden brown, about 2 minutes. Transfer to another small bowl and set aside.
In the same skillet over medium-high, heat the remaining 2 tablespoons oil until shimmering. Add the onion, garlic and ½ teaspoon salt; cook, stirring occasionally, until golden brown, 5 to 8 minutes. Return the couscous to the skillet and add the artichokes, stirring the coat. Stir in 3 cups water, the allspice, 1 ½ teaspoons salt and 1 teaspoon pepper. Bring to a simmer, then cover, reduce to a low and cook, undisturbed, until the couscous has absorbed most of the liquid, about 15 minutes.
Remove from the heat. Stir in the olives, half the dill and the pomegranate molasses. Taste and season with salt and pepper. Transfer to a serving dish a top with the toasted almonds, the remaining dill, and additional drizzle of pomegranate molasses and a sprinkle of black pepper.
[music]
Alison Stewart: In his new cookbook, food writer Christopher Kimball says, the appeal of noodles is that, "They have a past, they have a future, and they charm and delight in almost every kitchen in the world." He reminds us, all you need is some flour or rice, water, and salt, and then so much is possible. With recipes from countries like China, Japan, Italy, Greece, Mexico, and Peru. The book is called Milk Street Noodles: Secrets to the World’s Best Noodles, from Fettuccine Alfredo to Pad Thai to Miso Ramen.
Joining us today is the author of Milk Street, and America's Test Kitchen founder, Christopher Kimball. Christopher, welcome back. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What are your favorite family noodle recipes? Maybe you're a fan of a hearty pasta or a Japanese udon. Do you like cold noodles? Maybe there's a recipe you'd like to try out, or you need a suggestion. You can give us a call at 212-433 WNYC. That is 212-433-9692.
Our phone lines are wide open for noodle lovers everywhere, or you can reach out to us at All of It, WNYC. Christopher, the first chapter is titled Pasta Primer, or Primer. [laughs] The first sentence describes a discovery of a bowl of noodles thought to be about 4,000 years old, found at a Chinese excavation site. Why did you want to start with this fact?
Christopher Kimball: I love history much better than the present.
Alison Stewart: [laughs]
Christopher: Kimball I would've been really happy 4,000 years ago. Would've been my kind of culture. It's so interesting, people talk about where noodles came from, but they were making noodles, I think, on Sicily, in the 13th century. There's a lot of mistaken history here, as there is in all food. Noodles are a base on which different cultures express their approach to taste, flavors, and cooking. It's the ultimate blank canvas. That's what's so interesting about noodles.
Alison Stewart: Modern-day Asian noodles are typically made from white or reese, but there are-- Rice, excuse me, but there are other varieties. You can have the made of yam or mung beans. How does it affects the texture when you get outside of the wheat and rice realm?
Christopher Kimball: Well, it depends how it's treated. Like ramen, for example, with baking soda. It's an alkaline treatment, which makes them very springy. It's not just the ingredients, it's how they're prepared. Udon noodles are wheat flour, salted water, and you-- [laughs] When I was visiting Sonoko Sakai in LA a few years ago, she invited me into her home. She wrote Japanese Home Cooking, great book.
She gave me a pair of socks, I put them on, and we jumped up and down on bags of udon dough for about 15 minutes. [laughs] That's how she kneads the dough. As a result, udon has some texture. In general, I think pure wheat flour, gives you the best texture, I think, but it just depends. Different cultures, not to overgeneralize, but in the Chinese culture, they really love a chewy mouth feel. There's different kinds of textures they prefer to, let's say, Italian pasta. It's local. It depends on what people like.
Alison Stewart: I actually have a clip from when you visited Sonoko Sukai's home. She's the author of Japanese Home Cooking, Simple Meals, Authentic Flavors. Here, she's describing the origins of udon and the specific flour used to make them.
Sonoko Sukai: That classic udon is pretty thick and quite different from other Asian noodles, I think.
Christopher Kimball: What gives udon that springy texture?
Sonoko Sukai: Well, it's the way the flour's milled, but it's just basically salt and water, and the wheat flour, there's nothing else, but it is a medium-milled flour. It's not cake flour, it's not bread flour, it's right in the middle. We could use all-purpose, and the udon in Japan, the flour itself comes mostly from Australia. Australia makes the best udon flour.
Alison Stewart: That's fascinating. Do we know why Australia makes the best udon flour?
Christopher Kimball: We're talking about protein content, I would assume. She's talking about all-purpose, which tends to be 10% to 12% protein content. Bread is around 14, cake is under 10. Instead of using, let's say a Durum wheat, which you would use in Italy, which is very high protein content, she's talking about something in the middle range. I think, jumping up and down on it for a while probably has something to do with the texture, something she did not mention, but I would suspect that's also important.
Alison Stewart: I'm so glad you explained that, because there is a picture in the book, of someone in their socks. [laughs]
Christopher Kimball: Well, I still have the socks. I got a great [unintelligible 00:05:02] and I got a pair of orange socks. What was really interesting, the socks had little-- They were sort of yachting socks, little boats on them, which I thought was really appropriate for Greenwich, Connecticut, but I'm not sure about [laughs] doing udon with them.
Alison Stewart: My guest is Christopher Kimball, the book is called Milk Street Noodles: Secrets to the World's Best Noodles. Listeners, if you'd like to get in on this conversation, we'd love to hear about a favorite family noodle recipe, maybe you're a fan of a certain pasta or a certain Japanese udon, or maybe you'd like cold noodles. Maybe there's a noodle recipe you'd like to try out, or you have a question.
212-433-9692 212-433 WNYC is our number, or you can reach out on social media at All Of It, WNYC. Before we leave udon, I did want to ask-- Did you have udon noodles chilled with a dipping sauce?
Christopher Kimball: Yes, I like that. I don't like chilled Italian pasta salads, which, of course, don't exist in Italy, really. They're so delicate tasting things, I don't like those, but I do like that. She made me, it's in the book, there's udon noodles with a sort of a spicy meat sauce, mushroom sauce, that was outstanding. That was really delicious as well. I can go for that. Like Kenji López-Alt, who wrote some famous books, as you know, The Food Lab, he often makes cold noodles, in the summer, where he lives, in Seattle.
Those work well, I like that a lot. In fact, there's some basic sauces here. There's a soy sauce, sugar [unintelligible 00:06:48] combination, toasted sesame oil. There's a fish sauce, lime juice, sugar. There's a few basic sauces. Those sauces can be used on either hot or cold noodles. Then, hoisin sauce, for example. It's so simple to throw together. It's just a pantry sauce, takes a minute. Then cold noodles, or just freshly boiled udon, soba, or whatever. Then you have dinner, throw some scallions on it.
Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Mercy's calling in from Pine Beach, New Jersey. Hi, Mercy, thanks for calling All of It.
Mercy: Hi, Allison. Thanks for taking my call. I love your show.
Alison Stewart: Thanks.
Mercy: What I wanted to say is, whenever my father was working late and my mom didn't make dinner ahead of time, she would boil egg noodles. She'd start to scramble eggs in a pan and throw the egg noodles in, and that was dinner. She'd also put lots of butter, of course.
Alison Stewart: That sounds like a super comfort dish for you, Mercy, even in your description--
Mercy: It was. I cook it once in a while now, and my husband turns up his nose, but once he starts eating it, he remembers how good it is.
Alison Stewart: Mercy, thanks for calling in. Christopher, what is a recipe in the book that you would think would fall under that comfort category?
Christopher Kimball: Well, I was thinking about Fettuccine Alfredo while she was talking, and we went to Rome. It's a couple of famous restaurants there, that appeal to Hollywood celebrities. It's very creamy, it's very rich, and it's-- That's not the real recipe. The real recipe is really something usually mothers made for their kids when they had a stomach ache, [laughs] oddly enough.
It's pasta fettuccine, and they use a lot of the cooking water, which is very starchy, because they don't use as much water to cook pasta as we do, butter, and some grated cheese. The secret is that the pasta water, as you toss the pasta for two or three minutes, emulsifies the cheese and the butter. It's not overly rich, but it's absolutely delicious. The base is really the water, you use up to a cup of water in that.
That was the real recipe, and then they started throwing cream in it, and everything else. It was just completely over the top. It's the last thing you would give an eight-year-old with a stomachache. [laughs] I make that for my kids, I don't know, two or three times a month. You just get a bowl out, cut maybe five or six tablespoons of softened butter, cook the pasta, put it in, add some of the water, and you toss. It's delicious.
Alison Stewart: You have in the book a Filipino recipe of Pancit Bihon noodles, a stir fry made with rice from [unintelligible 00:09:36]. You write in the book flat rice noodles won't work here. Why not?
Christopher Kimball: I think because they're not going to cook through properly. There is a category of noodles that are stir-fried, or fried, and they're crispy, like fideo, that sort of thing. That's a whole category of noodles that are dishes where they actually have a lot of texture, but my guess is they're not going to cook through properly, in the time you stir fry them.
Alison Stewart: We do have a question about cooking the vermicelli and thin noodles too long. How do you cook them? How do you avoid this?
Christopher Kimball: Well, the problem with pasta is, if you have-- First of all, in Italy, they most often cook dried pasta. They also get their tomatoes out of a can. They're not getting them out of the backyard. A dry pasta-- Some of these, with the durum wheat, can cook 10 to 12 minutes. I have some brands at home that take forever, but a fresh pasta is going to cook in just a couple of minutes, and then an udon or soba may take, again, two to three or four minutes, so it just depends.
There's no secret to it. You just take out some of the noodles and taste them. I would also caution people about the term al dente, because that drives real Italians crazy. What they mean is toothsome, they don't mean undercooked. I remember years ago, I was at some trendy restaurant in Downtown New York I won't mention. I think it was ravioli, and they were half-cooked, they were chewy. Nobody wants chewy pasta, you want it cooked, but just to the tooth. Just a little toothsome, but you don't want it chewy.
Alison Stewart: We have a ravioli question, actually. Michael, from Brightwaters, Long Island. Hi, Michael, you're on with Christopher Kimball.
Michael: Hi, Christopher. I have a question. I enjoy the pesto and cheese-stuffed ravioli. Now, it normally comes with the pesto sauce on the outside, if it's homemade. Is there a way to make fried ravioli and still getting the essence of the pesto flavor without necessarily putting it into the filling of the ravioli, or putting it as a dipping sauce? Is there a way to capture that essence in a fried ravioli, of the pesto?
Christopher Kimball: Well, if you've eliminated it as a stuffing, and you've eliminated it as a sauce, I'm running out of ideas here. Some people will make-- One of our cooking teachers in Italy, she makes pasta with herbs pressed as part of the dough. You could take basil and put that into the dough, between [unintelligible 00:12:21] and sheets, and then roll it through a pasta machine, so you could have-- Basil,, pesto. Of course, that's not going to give you much fresh flavor, I would say.
Also, as a filling, you probably want, really, denser, more concentrated fillings, but you could do that, or as you mentioned, you could use it as a sauce. If you don't use it as sauce and don't use it as filling, you're not going to get a lot of pesto flavor. I would say one of the great things about-- We didn't discover, but it was clear in the book that there's 1,000 different pestos. Genovese is just one. We have a great recipe in here, which is almonds and lemon.
It's a lemon pesto, and that's amazing. You improvise. You got something green, usually, but of course, lemon rind is not green. You have some kind of a nut, probably. You don't have to use garlic. You have olive oil, and you probably have some cheese, so you can improvise anything you want. Parsley is cheaper than basil, and makes a perfectly good pesto.
Alison Stewart: Good luck, Michael. Let's talk to Jack, from New York. Hi, Jack. Thanks for calling All Of It.
Jack: All right. Thanks for taking my call. Chris, I love your shows, and just remembering that when you were on Cook's Country, you had a phenomenal technique for carbonara, where you drizzled the hot oil from the pancetta after it's been sauteed, into the egg, and it tempered the egg. It was the best carbonara I made, but I can't remember the rest of the techniques and how you did it.
Christopher Kimball: Well, the problem with carbonara, cacio e pepe, and all those things, is emulsifying the sauce so that it stays emulsified more than about 90 seconds. You have to eat those things really fast because they tend to congeal over time. As I remember that, one of the tricks was to warm the bowl that you mix the carbonara in and serve from, that was really important, and also probably using a little bit of the cooking water as well, but in general--
ew have a cacio e pepe which we-- We actually put cornstarch into water separately, and use that as the basis for the sauce. If you cook a pound of pasta, we use two quarts of water instead of four, and use plenty of salt, by the way, and that will give you a higher concentration of starch in the water. Tthat helps bind ingredients together. Starch is a binder, and that's the basis for most of those sauces, but you also need to keep it at temperature, because once it cools down, it tends to get pretty nasty.
Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Mary, from Passaic County, New Jersey. Hi, Mary. Thanks for calling All of It. You're on with Christopher Kimball.
Mary: Hey, Christopher. I'm a huge fan. I was wondering, when you were in Italy, you stopped in a little farm area, it was a dairy farm, I think, and you made just pasta. The guy made it in two minutes, you turned around, and it was done. It was cheese, and there was pasta in it, but I was wondering if there was pepper in it as well.
Christopher Kimball: Well, sort of pasta. It's bread crumbs, eggs, and cheese, and you mix it together in a bowl. There was a little town, forgotten the name, it's outside of Bologna, and it's on a hill. There are no cars. It's cobblestone streets. You can't drive cars there. There's a monastery at the top. Phenomenal place. He made it in four minutes with his hands, and then you press it through a ricer, essentially, like a potato ricer.
Then you cut it off with a knife every two inches or so, and you put it into simmering chicken stock, which has a little bit of nutmeg in it, I think, and you serve it with hot chicken stock. It's absolutely one of the best things I ever had in my life. If you want a 10-minute supper, it's really easy to make. It's delicious.
Alison Stewart: Christopher, you have North African chicken couscous in here. You said you got a lesson from a chef from Tunisia, while you were in Tunisia. Couscous is noodles?
Christopher Kimball: Well, it's pasta, broadly speaking. It's fregula, which is essentially couscous that's been oven toasted. In the old days, when Paula Wolfert did her first book from Morocco, back in the 70s, she had a bake couscous from scratch recipe, which, I think, takes about three days. You have to make the pasta, you have to press it through the holes. I think you have to dry it, then you have to cook it. It's a long process, but yes, couscous is-- Well,like gnocchi is pasta, same thing. It's just a different way of doing it.
Alison Stewart: Jeremy is calling in, from the city. Hey, Jeremy. Thanks for calling All of It.
Jeremy: Hi. Thank you. I would like to know more about buckwheat noodles, or buckwheat. It's hard to find buckwheat or soba noodles, I believe it's called, without common wheat as one of the ingredients for people who want to eat less wheat, where buckwheat is good. Can you tell me anything about buckwheat?
Christopher Kimball: Yes, you are right. It's soba noodles. Traditionally, they're made with buckwheat. I know that in the supermarket, they usually are a mix, you're right, of wheat flour and buckwheat. Last time I checked, there was one brand in the supermarket I go to in Boston, that did have pure buckwheat. I know you can definitely get it online, because traditionally, it is buckwheat, but you're right. Most of the commercial varieties at supermarkets are a mix, but if you just go online, you can definitely find pure buckwheat soba.
Alison Stewart: Of all the Italian dishes, there are certain ones that are classics, that we all know the names of. Is there an Italian pasta recipe, or pasta that you want to shout out, that you want people to investigate, that does not get enough love?
Christopher Kimball: Yes. I have a love-hate relationship with lasagna. I think most of it is pretty dreadful. When I was in Bologna, I got a lesson on making ragù bolognese meat sauce, which, by the way, uses no cream. It's just four different types of meat, the carrot, onions, celery, and some wine, and they cook it for three or four hours, but what's interesting is the traditional lasagna there, they use spinach lasagna.
Very, very, very thin sheets, and they alternate layers of the ragù, and then the béchamel, which is essentially a béchamel with cheese melted in it. It's thin layers of meat sauce and this béchamel, and it's very delicate and light. I just made it, actually, a couple of weeks ago, and it's the best thing in the world. It doesn't have big clumps. There's no mozzarella. It's not crispy and dry at the top. It's very soft and very delicate.
It's so interesting when you go back-- After all these years of food writers going to Italy, et cetera, you'd think that some of these recipes, we would actually have down by now, but almost every time I go there, I discover that the version that we're comfortable with or know here has been adapted, and changed, and really is not that similar to what is made in Italy. That's true for almost any other country.
It's a lovely surprise when you go, discover, "Oh, this is why people eat lasagna. It's really good." That was my last night there, and I just went to a restaurant. It wasn't any particularly fancy place, and it was amazing.
Alison Stewart: The name of the book is Milk Street Noodles: Secrets to the World’s Best Noodles. This is a lifesaver for me, Christopher, because I have a growing 15-year-old who loves pasta so much. This book will come in very handy in the household. Thank you for writing it. We really appreciate it.
Christopher Kimball: Oh, yes, and condolences on the 15-year-old. Man, I've been there, done that. That's not easy.
Alison Stewart: Chris, thanks.
Christopher Kimball: Yes.
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