No More Late Fees at NYC Libraries

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Big announcement yesterday, all three major public library systems in New York City are eliminating late fees. That's the New York Public Library, which if you didn't know, only serves three of the five boroughs, Manhattan, the Bronx, and Staten island, as well as the Brooklyn Public Library and the Queens Library System, which technically are separate. In a joint statement, they said the goal of this policy shift is to create a more equitable system that doesn't disproportionately affect people in poor neighborhoods and to encourage more people to utilize their local public library branches.

Remember libraries today are about a lot more than books, but they also think late fees discourage the returning of books rather than incentivize it. With me now to talk about the push to end late fees, as well as the reopening of public libraries at this point in the pandemic and library users to take your calls, is Dennis Walcott, President and CEO of the Queens Library System. Good morning, Dennis. Welcome back to WNYC. Thank you for doing this.

Dennis Walcott: Good morning, Brian. First, belated happy birthday. Thank you for having me. I look forward to you joining me in my 70s next year when you turn that age. Happy birthday to you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. How did the library system decide to eliminate fees and given all the lost revenue from COVID among other things? Why now?

Dennis Walcott: I got to give a lot of credit to Tony mark, then Linda Johnson, who has been really front and center. Tony, as you know is the President of the New York Public Library. Linda is the President of the Brooklyn Public Library. When the pandemic started, we basically said, we're not going to charge any late fees and the fines because people can't get their books back and we're not going to do that. We were able to adjust our budgets accordingly and to absorb the lost revenue from the late fees.

We had been wanting to do this all along. As you indicated, with three separate entities, three separate 501c3, we went to our board, our board passed policies, allowing us to do this. That's what we announced. As of yesterday, they will not be any more late fines fees and then we wiped the books clean of individuals who owe fines and fees from before. It's a really brand new day in New York City. It's changing really policies of over a hundred years old to do something totally different.

Brian Lehrer: Is this equity-based, is this psychology-based because you discover that late fees disincentivized returning books, rather than incentivize it? What's at the top of your list?

Dennis Walcott: It's definitely equity-based. The goal is to make sure that we have an equitable system and responding to our customers in a way that allow them to take full advantage of our libraries. It's also dealing with the anchor that's been around folks' necks as far as late fees and serving as a deterrent from coming in our door. I tell this story of when I was a child, I still remember having late fees and signs on my books and being hesitant to go to my local library, the St. Alban's library in Queens.

I shouldn't be that way as a child, but then that was the reality. We don't want any child to really feel that way, nor do we want any adult. One day I was in one of our libraries, the LeFrak City Library and a young boy came in with his sister and he had a ton of books he wanted to take out. Unfortunately, he had old fines from before, and he was prevented from taking out those books. Even though we have a Read Down Your Fee program, the child really, I could see him being crestfallen.

I knew our children's librarian and our desk folks would work the details out with him to allow him to do what was necessary to get the books, but we shouldn't have any child in that position at all. We should not have any adult in that position. This is all about making sure we create an equitable library system for all residents and all income levels and all backgrounds.

Brian Lehrer: Here's the stat to that point. The Brooklyn Public Library says the branches with the most blocked cards blocked because late fees weren't paid in its library system are in neighborhoods where more than 20% of households live below the poverty line. Were things similar for the Queens Library System that you run?

Dennis Walcott: That is true. It's that, as well as I'll give you another stat that 65% of those individuals who are blocked are 18 and under. Again, it's an impact to teenagers and younger. That's a heck of a figure and that shouldn't be. That's a major reason why we did what we did and Tony and New York Public Library can cite their figures as well but the disproportionate impact on communities of color, those who are lower-income is tremendous, and we don't want that to exist at all. It will not exist moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anything you always wanted to ask the head of a public library system, but you didn't have one over for dinner. It's possible right now with Dennis Walcott, President, and CEO of the Queens Library System on late fees or anything else, 646-435-7280. What about the economic impact of this? Obviously a nonprofit like a library isn't trying to make money, but how will you make up for the revenue that late fees would have brought? I don't have the stats for Queens, but I read that in 2019, the New York Public Library System covering Manhattan, the Bronx, and Staten island brought in a little over $3 million in late fees.

Dennis Walcott: We brought it in Queens, roughly $940,000, and we just have to adjust and we've been adjusting all along during the pandemic. We're very thankful to the city for its support. Then we've been raising money privately as well. It's a necessary adjustment because again, we don't want to have revenue on the backs of individuals. We don't want the revenue being as a result of children not coming into our library or adults saying, "We can't take advantage of the full services because we owe fines and fees."

That's something we're doing. I know both Linda and Tony have done it extremely well. We're doing it in Queens right now, and then balancing the various challenges that we have as far as coming out of the pandemic. Making sure we have the proper equipment in place to protect our customers and our staff, and also responding some of the capital issues that all of us face as well, as far as improving our infrastructure. That's part of management. That's part of adjustment, that's part of looking at your revenue, but not having the revenue on the backs of individuals.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a little pushback I think, coming from Robert in Queens. Robert, you're on WNYC. Hello. Robert, are you there? Do I have the right line for Robert in Queens? All right. I guess he hung up or whatever, but Robert in Queens told their screener no fines will result in book theft. If you don't have the incentive of fines, why not think that people are just going to take books out of the library? They know there's no penalty for not returning them and they just keep the books not necessarily even out of being malicious, but out of neglect. Then, "Oh, I don't have to bother."

Dennis Walcott: Two responses to that. I think the supermajority of individuals are going to return their books. We have other libraries throughout the country that have gone fine-free, and they find that people are returning books in a timely manner. That way they're back in circulation. Two, if it reaches a certain level where someone has a book, that person will be charged for the book itself but the difference is that once they bring a book in, then any type of charge would have been wiped off their account.

There's always an incentive to those who come into our libraries to return to the material. We haven't seen that across the country, and we're confident that that will not happen as well.

Brian Lehrer: Asta in Washington Heights, you're on WNYC with Dennis Walcott, Head of the Queens Library System. Hi Esta.

Asta: Hi, I just have a question about renewal. I received notification that my library card was expiring and I have to go in person to the library to renew it. I'm caring for two unvaccinated children. We're just wondering if, during COVID it wouldn't be logical to allow some kind of renewal. They gave me a small extension, but it was like a month or two.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Which borough are you in?

Asta: Manhattan.

Dennis Walcott: New York Public Library is really good about online renewals. You should go to their website and that can guide you. As far as I know in Queens, people will go to our website and go online to get a new card or renew their card, or go for a book. You should double-check New York Public Library's website and that information should be there for you to renew without you having to go out and put yourself or your children in any way that you're uncomfortable with.

Brian Lehrer: Asta, give it a shot. Hopefully, that will work, and thanks for your call. To the caller who raised the question of book theft, maybe it's worth saying that while the library systems are getting rid of late fees, there are still replacement fees for lost material, correct?

Dennis Walcott: That is correct, Brian. That's what I was referring to earlier. Yes, sir. That if you do not return a book and it goes past a certain date, then you will get a notice to return the book or be charged for that particular book. There's always that incentive but, again, the difference is once you do return the book-- For example, I couldn't find a book that I had taken out I knew it's somewhere in the house. This is a true story and I just couldn't find it, so I got my notice.

I said, okay, let me just go wait, and then I paid the price of the book that the library my library was charging, and the difference will be now that I would have that payment not count anymore. I wouldn't be charged once I returned it or I can have that reinstated. Yes, you'll be able to get the books back but at the same time, if you can't find your book, then the cost of replacing that book will definitely come out from you.

Brian Lehrer: Right. I'm sorry, did you say at what length of time after you took out the book that was?

Dennis Walcott: I did not say. 28 days.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's not so long. After a month, you're going to be charged for this book anyway.

Dennis Walcott: Yes, but just like the woman was saying you can renew it, but if you just let it stay dormant without renewing, then you can be charged. You have the ability to renew your book a number of times.

Brian Lehrer: I see. Now, to the caller, Asta, who wants to renew her library card without going in in-person, I am told right away by our crack producer staff that there's an e-mail account for that, e-mail patronaccounts@nypl.org that's because you're in Manhattan, so it's New York Public Library, patronaccounts@nypl.org. One of my producers says he had the exact same experience, thought he needed to go in in-person but sure enough, he tells me they renewed his card.

He didn't even know library cards expired until he got that notice, but there you go, patronaccounts@nypl.org if you want to renew your library card in Manhattan, Staten Island, or the Bronx. You have something like that for Queens, Dennis?

Dennis Walcott: Yes. Just go to our queenspubliclibrary.org site and you'll see a section for renewals or something that may sound similar to what your producer found for the New York Public Library.

Brian Lehrer: Big picture, what did COVID mean for the Queens Library System and New York City Public Library as a whole, they were closed for a long time?

Dennis Walcott: We obviously like the rest of the city closed down in March of 2020, and that rather quickly turned into having virtual programs and services up within a couple of weeks at the Queens Public Library. In addition to offering the virtual programmatic services and people being able to tap into ordering books, and then eventually going to grab-and-go into their local library to pick up the books, we turned a number of our libraries into testing sites as well.

We started off with the Windsor Park Library in Queens that became a testing site. Kew Gardens Hills in Queens became a testing site. Then [unintelligible 00:14:15] Lefferts and others became testing sites and then a number of our libraries became vaccine sites as well. We had several of our libraries including Flushing that became a vaccine site. We tried to serve the public in a variety of ways. For example, the Bayside Public Library became one of our most popular grab-and-go sites.

People would order their books beforehand and then pick up their books, and then we gradually opened our doors. We also develop remote printing so people who had a need to print would do the same thing. They would send in their printing requests to our local libraries and then they were able to pick up up to 20 pages and even more for free of anything that they needed printed as well. We try to adapt rather quickly to the onset of COVID and what it meant for the impact to the community, and then we expanded it for program services to make sure they were virtual.

Then we started opening our doors to make sure people could come in and take advantage of the computers, so we have computer usage now. The one thing we have not done and we're waiting to follow the numbers in New York City is open up our doors for program services to take place on-site. People can come in, they can browse, they can sit down, they can use the computers. We just opened up our IDNYC site at the Central Library in Queens in Jamaica, and that's done on a reservation basis. We're trying to gradually open up both virtually more and more services but also in-person services as we move forward.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe it's worth saying just to back out for a minute with some of those services that you listed. What the role of a public library in society is today, because it is for so much more than just checking out books, right?

Dennis Walcott: You said it in your introduction that the libraries today are definitely not the libraries from my childhood. You have adult learning services taking place, you have English as a second language taking place. You have job creation skill services taking place, you have entrepreneur programs, you have a lot of literacy and educational programs that are on site. The programmatic services have really been driving on numbers more and more but tied into that, you have people who are coming in to take advantage of computer services and using a lot of computers to do everything that they need done in today's world.

The library has grown tremendously as far as the type of program services and meeting the needs of the public and focusing on the immigrant populations, especially in the borough of Queens. As you know, we are the most diverse borough and as a result of that, our staff and our services reflect that diversity, in providing the program supports and helping people get acclimated to our society.

Brian Lehrer: Here is Tom in Massapequa with an amnesty story, I think. Tom, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Tom: Hey, good morning. Thank you for your show, Brian. I wanted you all to hear that many years ago, before the internet, I had photos that I had taken out of the New York City Photo Library which existed back in the day. I kept them at my desk for 10 years. I always felt weird returning them but I got an intern and I had him return them and then was no charge and I felt such a positive thing by returning them even though I was so remiss.

Brian Lehrer: A heartwarming story. Dennis, you have any like that?

Dennis Walcott: We do. Matter of fact, one of those stories hit the New York Times even where a woman and don't hold me to the exact number of years but had a book out for 65 years. She ran across it and then returned it. I don't think we charged anything. I'm positive we didn't and then she made a nice little donation. There are a number of people who come across books and I think it was connected to the Auburndale Library in Queens. We've had those stories as well. Now we want the books no matter how old they are and we now especially will never charge you in that regard.

One of the things that the gentleman said that really reminded me of something is that what we're doing connected to COVID, Brian is that we also have our Queens Memory Project, which we do in conjunction with Queens College and that's capturing a lot of information that tragically and suddenly has taken place in the borough as a result of COVID. We have our librarians and historians capturing community's input as far as what's happened in their respective communities.

That's been going on as well. Then we did something recently in conjunction with Elmhurst Hospital where we announced on Baby Library Card, where are we going to have cards available for parents who just gave birth at Elmhurst and other hospitals. That way, it really reinforces the value of reading and literacy or the importance of that to newborns and the infants who are in the borough.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's really wonderful. By the way, I don't know if Tom in Massapequa might have been motivated by this intimidating thought like one of our listeners who just treated us listener, David Wright. "My late wife was a librarian, she would have appreciated this move, no late fees, as she was always terrified by Stephen King's Library Policemen." I don't know that story, but it sounds scary.

Dennis Walcott: It's interesting, because when I started this job five and a half years ago, as I'm walking in the door, one of my first thoughts was, "Do I have any outstanding fees?" That was rather embarrassing and really, your mind goes to that direction and it just should not be that way. Brian, before we end, I just want to make two notes of something. One, that two of our libraries are still down as a result of Hurricane Ida. For your listeners who may be in these communities, we're working very hard to reopen them.

One is Lefrak City, which was severely damaged as a result of Ida, and Elmhurst Library, which was also damaged. A little further along with Elmhurst, Lefrak is going to be a big challenge, but we're working diligently to reopen both of them as a result of Hurricane Ida.

Brian Lehrer: We're working on getting a guest from FEMA in subsequent days to talk about various people in our area, who are not getting the response that they hope to help them fix their Ida problems. Are you needing to go through FEMA for any of this and are they being responsive?

Dennis Walcott: We are trying to go to FEMA and it's too early to tell whether they're being responsive or not being responsive, but what we're doing is devoting our dollars to getting the libraries up and running. We're not waiting for FEMA to invest in. Obviously, we're tracking all expenditures so that way, we'll be submitting something to FEMA. We're putting the capital money and the expense money that we have to these libraries to open them.

Right now in Queens, out of 66 libraries, we have 56 that are open, and the others that are not open are just going through their normal construction phase and renovations. Doing a lot of building as well on top of all the programmatic expansions that we're doing, especially as we move further and further away from last year.

Brian Lehrer: A quick follow-up before you go on the conversation before about, how to renew a library card. Listener asks, why do library cards have to be renewed at all? Why aren't they permanent?

Dennis Walcott: For a couple of reasons. Theoretically, they are, but demographic information changes, people where they live, their phone numbers. It means there are some updates that are required as a result of that, so that's why renewals take place. They are shifting accounts where people move out. It's not every year and it's an infrequent type of renewal. Still, we do renew and then there are new library cards that are put out.

I'm waiting to have mine renewed because we got a new jazzy-looking library card that I want, but I'm not going to jump ahead to the queue as far as the normal renewing process. There are just a couple of reasons why they are renewed.

Brian Lehrer: Queens Library System, President and CEO Dennis Walcott, thank you so much, really appreciate it.

Dennis Walcott: Brian, thank you very much for having me, and also by relationship Tony and Linda because we're here to serve the public and this is a major step and allowing the public to take full advantage of the New York Public Library Systems.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for your service.

 

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