Noncitizen Voting is Illegal in NYC

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Arun Venugopal: It to Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Welcome back everyone I'm Arun Venugopal from the WNYC and Gothamist's newsroom filling in for Brian today. In December of last year, the New York City Council passed a law that would've allowed about 800,000 non-citizen voters in New York City who either have permanent residency or work authorization.

It would've allowed them to participate in city elections starting this coming year in January, but earlier this week a New York state judge declared the law unconstitutional. Conservative politicians maintained the right to vote should be reserved for American citizens alone. Both former Mayor Bill de Blasio and current mayor Eric Adams didn't sign the bill. Neither did they reject it. Now non-citizen voting has been a controversial topic and laws defer from state to state.

Plus the Supreme court has just released its decision today on the so-called remain in Mexico policy and it ruled that the Biden administration does have the authority to end the Trump-era program which made asylum seekers at the Southern border wait for their court dates in Mexico rather than here in the US. We'll get a reaction to that as well from Theodore Moore the vice president of policy at the New York immigration coalition. Welcome to WNYC Theodore.

Theodore Moore: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Arun Venugopal: First, let's start with your reaction to the Supreme court's decision on the remain in Mexico policy. How do you feel?

Theodore Moore: We think today's Supreme court decision was long-awaited and it'll allow obviously the Biden administration to end one of Trump's extremely racist policies that really left thousands of asylum seekers who were stuck in limbo at the border. We're happy to see that the Supreme court overturned this and is going to allow the Biden administration to get rid of this policy. Now we just wait for the Biden administration to actually do this.

Arun Venugopal: Now it's just been a few minutes since the decision was announced, but do you have any sense of why the court went this way?

Theodore Moore: I imagine is that they were just looking at the policy itself and saw how cruel and discriminatory that it actually was. Millions of people are seeking freedom from violence and poverty at our borders and in our country and are subjected to persecution and inhumane conditions while waiting to cross the border. I think they just looked at the policy and the conditions that it actually helped create and started. It was something that was in the powers of the Biden administration to get rid of.

Arun Venugopal: All right. Well, we'll discuss this decision a little more later in the show with our two legal experts. Let's get back to the issue of non-citizen voting which was passed by the city council, and then struck down just a few days ago. Were you surprised that it was struck down?

Theodore Moore: No. Definitely, wasn't surprised we actually anticipated it when the lawsuit was filed in Staten Island in the Richmond County Supreme court. We knew that it was filed by the Republican elected officials and the Republican national committee specifically in that court because it was a court that was going to be favorable to their opinions. We assumed that this judge in that court was going to look at it not based on the merits of the actual policy, but based purely on politics. We anticipated this.

Arun Venugopal: Great. Well, now we do also have a clip that we're going to play in a little bit from my colleague and fellow reporter Brigid Bergen. Before we get to that this is, substance of this case in terms of what advocates have argued which is that although the state constitution stipulates that citizens can vote it does not explicitly exclude non-citizens from voting I'm pulling from the New York Times coverage of this issue. What was the Justice Ralph J. Porzio's argument for determining the illegality of voting for non-citizens and how would you respond to him if you could?

Theodore Moore: The judge correctly pointed out that the state constitution does protect the rights of citizens of a certain age to vote. Where he was incorrect is that he thought that that created a ceiling. We understand that that only creates a floor so what they do in the constitution is they add protections for those who are eligible to vote and that creates a floor. What we are doing is we're raising that and really expanding eligibility in New York City.

Arun Venugopal: Let's talk about past voting rights for non-citizens. It happened in the not so distance past, correct?

Theodore Moore: Yes. In New York City during prior to the Bloomberg administration in New York City, non-citizens were actually able to vote for school board. Non-citizens where I go out vote for school board elections until then Mayor Bloomberg eliminated the school boards. Actually, that was the reasoning for then city council members to actually think about non-citizen voting on a citywide level for municipal elections is because of the elimination of non-citizen voting in our school board elections.

Arun Venugopal: Do you know if that was controversial at the time?

Theodore Moore: I don't think it was controversial at the time. It was just something that just didn't really happen during that council, but it was something that the coalition or previous versions of this coalition continued to fight for and continued to have a lot of support within the council up until it was passed late last year.

Arun Venugopal: I want to throw this to people listening right now. Listeners, are you a non-citizen? Are you a non-citizen that was looking forward to voting and was surprised by the sudden change of events? How long have you lived into the country and how would being allowed to vote change your perspective on New York City politics? If you're already a voter do you think non-citizen New Yorkes should be allowed to vote? Why or why not? We want to hear from you please call in at 212-433-9692 or tweet at Brian Leher.

Again, that number is 212-433-9692. Theodore, stepping away from voting rights for a second. During the Trump era, there was a sense that the rights of immigrants were in constant peril in a way that I think was distinct from the era prior to that. I'm wondering when we talk about daily life, does the Biden-era feel any different when it comes to that feeling of that someone who isn't documented could be whisked away at any moment by ICE officials for instance?

Theodore Moore: I think the difference is that we don't see the day-to-day vitriol from the person who holds the bully pulpit as the president, as with President Trump, as we see with president Biden. That's really the only difference is that we don't have President Trump on a daily basis talking about undocumented individuals, talking about immigrants in a terrible way.

We're still waiting to see the Biden administration actually turn around this huge immigration and deportation machine. Though ICE is still doing their work. They're still being heavily funded. They're actually receiving more funds now than they were during the Trump administration. It's taking a while for the deeds and the actions to actually come into effect from the previous administration.

We have to understand these agencies are huge and it really takes a long time for them to understand that there's been a change in administration, but hopefully, we'll actually see some policies starting with repealing some of the Trump policies coming off of the Supreme court decision that can actually start to open up the borders once again to those who seek asylum within it.

Arun Venugopal: You said the funding for ICE has gone up. On the ground, does that translate into a difference in terms of the number of say sweeps that are happening at businesses or on the street?

Theodore Moore: I can't say if it's necessarily turned into an increase, but I don't think the feeling of safety for undocumented individuals is there. I don't think you would you can ask anyone on the street who would say since President Biden has been elected do you feel safe? Do you think that ICE will no longer be coming after you? They would definitely not say so.

Arun Venugopal: Returning to non-citizen voting rights. Are there cities that do have rights for people who aren't citizens?

Theodore Moore: Yes. There's several municipalities in Maryland. There are obviously in San Francisco, they allow non-citizen voting for school board elections, in Vermont, they're looking at noncitizen voting, and then there's other municipalities around the country that are looking at noncitizen and voting. New Jersey they're looking at it in several

cities and in Washington state as well. This is something that exists currently in the country and I think we're going to see a lot more as people look to add this to their policies.

Arun Venugopal: Rebecca from Twitter says, "Most non-citizen New Yorkers, 'do more to keep the city running than those of us who have the legal right to vote so yes, they should have access to the ballot." How do you know, Theodore, in terms of locations that managed to pass voting legislation, were they overcoming significant hurdles, or does it really depend on the politics of that particular city or municipality?

Theodore Moore: I think I'm in Takoma Park, in Maryland probably the municipality has had it for the longest thing, in this country currently. It's been running there successfully for decades now. This is a location that, quite frankly, is literally on during the Trump administration was right outside of Washington DC, and they continue to implement this policy successfully and without issue.

Arun Venugopal: We have a caller on hold. Michael calling in from East Harlem, you're a Green Card holder, are you, Michael?

Michael: Yes, correct. I'm originally from Ireland, been living in New York since 2019, and I've had a Green Card since 2018. I was really excited to get ready to vote in the local elections and was very disappointed with this decision.

Arun Venugopal: Do others who are in similar situations as you, Michael?

Michael: Not personally. I'm sure there are plenty of others as the last caller said a lot of the noncitizens in New York seem to do a lot of the communal care and really looking after each other in the community and raising awareness of important issues. I think having the right to vote as a resident would increase participation and interest in local elections.

Arun Venugopal: I'm just curious before we let you go, Michael, were there particular races or issues that you really cared about?

Michael: Yes, I was looking at, Eddie Gibbs, I think, is our local rep here. Just the general right to vote would be incredible. I understand the argument that it should be just for citizens. There's a lot of citizens out there who don't exercise their right to vote, and it's demoralizing being told that you can't vote while others will waste their vote ultimately.

Arun Venugopal: Thanks so much for calling, Michael. Let's take another call. Definitely, people calling with some very perspectives on this. Let's take a call from Lee in Canarsie, New York. Lee, you're on with Theodore. Any thoughts about this non-citizen voting right, that was struck down?

Lee: Hi, good morning. Let me preface by saying my wife was not born in the United States. She came here as a child, went through the process, became a citizen. My father was not-- same deal, not born in the United States, went through process, became a citizen. All four of my grandparents went through the process. There is a process which you do. Once you go through the process and become a citizen, you're given the right to vote. There's no such thing as a shortcut, come here illegally, get your green card, go through the process, get naturalized, and then you could vote. It's that simple.

Arun Venugopal: Got it. Thank you so much, Lee, for calling in. Any thoughts about that, Theodore?

Theodore Moore: First of all, shout out to Michael. I think an Irish green card holder living in East Harlem is probably so New York. That is amazing right there, and I love to hear stories like that. Just a little bit of clarification, so one Eddie Gibbs is the assembly member in East Harlem. This specific law would only be for municipal elections, so we'll be talking about City council, Borough President, mayor, public advocate, those specific offices. This would not be for state reps or for reps that are in Washington DC so not Congress or Senate.

Specifically, I think there was a little bit of an oversimplification of the naturalization and citizenship processes. This is extremely difficult and takes a long time to become a citizen. That's a process that quite frankly, we need to be fixing up and having a pathway for citizenship for so many undocumented individuals around the country.

Now, we're not talking specifically about what it takes to become a citizen of the United States. We're talking about what it takes to become a citizen of New York City, which is slightly different. I think there is individuals who have been here for decades, green card holders who participate in civic life, participate in every way, shape, or form. They were frontline workers working in hospitals.

They were delivery workers doing all of the things that really helped us get through this up pandemic and quite frankly, they had children here who are in schools, they go to parks, they are concerned about when their garbage is going to be picked up. Those individuals should have a say in the elected officials that represent them and make decisions specifically around education, around parks, around sanitation because they're New Yorkers, just like me.

Arun Venugopal: We're going to take some more callers, but I want to let you listen to a non-citizen who talked to WNYC's Brigid Bergin about this. This is Hina Naveed, a registered nurse, and an attorney. Let's listen to what Hina spoke to with Bridgid.

Hina: I know what my community needs, I know what my family needs, and I want my voice. I want to be able to have a say in who my Borough president is. I want to be able to say who my city council member is and to hold them accountable.

Arun Venugopal: Theodore, I guess this is the point you're trying to make, people want to be able to participate in all the matters which concern them on a daily basis?

Theodore Moore: Yes, I think we just saw a multibillion-dollar budget passed by the city council and the mayor last week. Quite frankly, these are elected officials who are making decisions that affect the daily life of so many individuals, and they shouldn't be accountable to everyone, and this is just one main way to raise the accountability for New Yorkers, for those elected officials so that they're more representative and accountable to the residents of New York City.

Arun Venugopal: Let's take another call. This is Lucas in Manhattan Night. Lucas, you've been here for a while, right, you're a green card holder? You're on with Theodore.

Lucas: Hi Theodore. I've been in New York City since 2011. I've been a green card holder for a couple of years. I think just for us who have been here for a long time, we pay taxes like everybody else. I think, we being part of this society, want to have a say in how that money is used, and it's a very sentimental right for us to want to have influence and a say on say the school boards and how the local leadership uses our tax dollars. We want to be part of that conversation and I think so this is a really disappointing decision that I think a lot of us will be very angry about because that's something that we've been campaigning for and fought for a long time.

Arun Venugopal: Thanks for your call, Lucas. Theodore, the expansion of non-citizen voting rights, had it happened, do you think it would have had a material impact on certain issues more than others?

Theodore Moore: One thing, not had it happened. There are multiple steps, we definitely plan on appealing this decision, so we ultimately think that we're going to be successful and that municipal voting will be available in New York City in the future, and we do think that it would have had a huge effect.

Not only do we think that it would have had an effect on obviously expanding the electorate, we're talking about potentially a million new eligible voters, but we think it would have ultimately invigorated the current electorate. We just had elections here in New York City on Tuesday, and we saw abysmal turnout numbers. I think that people are looking at what's happening in the country, they're looking at all of the decisions coming from the Supreme Court, and it makes them feel powerless.

It makes people feel like voting just isn't an option for actually using their power anymore. It makes people feel absolutely powerless. We think we have a group of people that want to use this power properly, see it as a means for creating change, and quite frankly, it's going to change the dynamics of New York City for the better, for the future.

Arun Venugopal: Let's take one more call. This is Christina, calling from

Manhattan. Christina, you've been here since, what, the 1980s, is that right?

Christina: Yes, that's right. I and my husband have been here since 1987. We work for the United Nations, and five years ago we got a green card. New York City is our home now, so voting would make us feel much more at home. We pay taxes also, so we want a voice in how this money is used, as another caller said. I personally am involved in climate change programming and I'm very worried what is going to happen to Manhattan, and I would like to have a voice in decision-making in that area.

Arun Venugopal: Thank you for your call, Christina.

Christina: This is my storry and I hope that this decision will be reversed.

Arun Venugopal: To that point Theodore, you yourself think it's going to be reversed. What is happening that we don't necessarily know about or that's happened behind the scenes in response to this ruling?

Theodore Moore: There's definitely going to be an appeal. The individuals who are defendants on the case plan on appealing this so that's Latino Justice, [unintelligible 00:21:14] will all be appealing. Hopefully along with the mayor and the city law department. We think we're going to ultimately be successful because the next judge will be looking at this case based on the actual constitutionality, based on the merits of the policy itself, instead of purely based on the politics which the judge in Staten Island was using and which obviously the Republicans who put that case there were anticipating.

Arun Venugopal: Do we see this as a growing trend across the country? Are there a lot of other places which are trying to make this happen?

Theodore Moore: Oh, we think this is absolutely going to be a trend, and we think that it's something that will be pushing back against the current trend of voter selection by elected officials and voter suppression that is happening all around the country.

Arun Venugopal: How are Republicans, I suppose, conservative people who are opposed to this? How are they responding to this in terms of organizing around this?

Theodore Moore: Obviously, we saw how they organized against this. It wasn't just Republican elected officials from New York City. It was the Republican National Committee. They clearly see this as a threat to the power that they hold around the country. Which is quite frankly, disappointing because I think any party-- we introduced this and we supported this as a nonpartisan measure, and we think that any party, Republican, Democrat, working families, Libertarian, Green Party should see this as an actual opportunity.

A new batch of eligible voters, an opportunity to do outreach, to build a new base, to pull people in based on the ideals of your party, but obviously, the Republican Party does not see it that way. They see an increased electorate that is mostly going to be people of color, and they feel threatened, and it's a shame that they feel that way.

Arun Venugopal: Thank you. Theodore Moore, vice president of Policy at the New York Immigration Coalition and joined us to speak about the illegality or the temporary, as he says, defeat of non-citizen voting here in New York City. Theodore Moore, thanks for joining us.

Theodore Moore: Thank you very much.

 

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