NYC's Public Advocate Meets NY's Future Governor

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. With us now is New York City Public Advocate Jumaane Williams. Remember he ran against Kathy Hochul in the democratic primary for Lieutenant Governor in 2018 and almost beat her. He got 47% of the vote, but yesterday they had a meeting and released a joint statement that said they had an important dialogue about issues of immediate importance, including vaccination efforts, reframing how they would address public safety, rental assistance, and a fund for workers, mostly immigrants excluded from federal COVID relief programs.

The joint statement fed speculation that Hochul might appoint Williams to be her Lieutenant Governor in a kind of upstate, downstate, and center left unity government. Public Advocate Jumaane Williams joins us now. Always great to have you, Public Advocate. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jumaane Williams: Always a pleasure. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Was the meeting with the incoming governor about what you expected or did she surprise you in any way?

Jumaane Williams: First of all, I really appreciate her reaching out. There's about to be a historic moment, the first woman governor in the state of New York. Another historic moment following another historic moment, a sad one, the resignation that we had to witness. I'm just happy she reached out and it was really about two leaders, elected leaders, one city, one state, how to move forward on the state. It was a great conversation. It was productive on the issues germane to today. I'm looking forward to some fruits coming out of that in, hopefully, the next couple of weeks.

Brian Lehrer: On one of those issues, the wording in your joint statement about your dialogue on public safety, it says reframing how we address public safety while reducing gun violence. Did you find Kathy Hochul to be deeply knowledgeable about police reform efforts, which you've been involved in for many years, or very knowledgeable about reframing public safety as the statement puts it?

Jumaane Williams: What I found was that she was receptive to many of the things that myself and others have been pushing for quite some time. The current governor, as of late, started coming around, I think a little bit too late, but receptive to the notion that this is not just a police reform issue, it's actually a holistic public safety issue. How we address gun violence is an important part of that, but the conversation has too often just gone astray.

It's not helpful when we're just hyper focused on police, which is one part of it. We need the accountability, we need the transparency, but that alone is not going to get us where we need to go. We have to be clear that when we look at public safety holistically, we will address gun violence in a way that we were doing actually before the pandemic. We need to get back there and not try to do the things we did 30 years ago, that people are apologizing for. I was happy that there was some reception there and I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think she could do on that topic as governor, as opposed to it happening police force by police force, municipality by municipality?

Jumaane Williams: I believe it's important for everyone who's in this position. I had a brief conversation with now president Biden, very, very briefly at the 911 Memorial before, obviously, he was elected. I said the same thing very briefly to him. My hope is that everybody gets it. It's a hard pivot if people don't really understand it. The news of the day is often so binary, but we cannot just focus on the issue of police reform while, as I mentioned, it has to be accountability and transparency and the governor's position is a great place to push that conversation.

Governor Cuomo pushed the conversation around police reform, he attached it to money so that people can make some changes, which I think was good. I have to give some credit, but where he missed all the way was just making it about public safety, not about policing. The governor has a great opportunity to do that. Traveling the state and the cities that I've gone to, the issues are remarkably the same.

What I found is that what we're working on here in New York City is very similar, although there's different context in terms of the geography, but it's very similar to the topics in Buffalo, in Rochester, in Syracuse. The governor uniting that with structural change and with funding and resources, can have a great impact on the direction we need to go.

Brian Lehrer: On that, can I digress for a minute and ask you about our other incoming executive? How serious do you find Eric Adams now to be about reframing public safety? He was not your candidate in the primary, but he portrays himself as someone who knows both things well, effective law enforcement techniques and police violence and police racism, and what to do about those. Are you coming to think he can be that missing link?

Jumaane Williams: Well, as you mentioned, I endorsed Maya Wiley as the top of my ranked-choice voting. To the surprise of some and not to others, Eric Adams was on my rank list. I was actually one of the few people who actually put theirs out in a public way. One of the reasons is because I've worked with him very much on the dealings with trying to stop the abuses [unintelligible 00:05:48] I've dealt with him on how we can address this gun violence in a holistic way.

I know he believes in that. I've dealt with him when many other folks wouldn't join me in pushing back on what our executives were doing during the COVID crisis. I've had a long history of working with him on many issues. My hope is that is the Eric Adams that shows up on his desk. If that's the Eric Adams that shows up, we're going to do a lot on those issues. Obviously there was some concerns I had expressed and others expressed about other things and things that came up during the campaign.

The campaign's over now. So I'm hoping that the Eric that I've known to work on those issues [unintelligible 00:06:27] that show up, and so forth through our conversations, I'm looking forward. I think there's a lot more agreement on issues than people believe. I'm going to go into January with the things we agree on and try to get those done.

Brian Lehrer: My guest, if you're just joining us, is New York City Public Advocate Jumaane Williams, following his meeting and joint statement with incoming governor, Kathy Hochul yesterday. Here's a little Kathy Hochul breaking news. Tell me if I'm springing this on you and you don't have a comment yet, but apparently she's touring a school in Corona, Queens this morning. Erin Durkin from Politico just tweeted, "Lieutenant Governor Hochul says the State Health Department has the authority to issue mask mandates while governor Cuomo had maintained they do not."

Then Erin tweeted, "Hochul says she believes a statewide mask mandate for schools will be necessary." A couple of interesting things in those tweets. One, that Hochul thinks a statewide mask mandate for schools will be necessary. Two, that she apparently disagrees with Cuomo on whether the state has the authority to order one. Do you have a position on either of those things?

Jumaane Williams: Well [unintelligible 00:07:49] schools did come up briefly in the conversation, but I was very clear that I believed mask mandates were necessary. I'm very happy to hear that this is moving forward. What we did not have and what people thought we did and got confused by bullying and a good TV persona, confused that with real leadership. We didn't have that. New York City and New York State suffered because of it. We didn't become the epicenter of the epicenter by accident. It was because of failed leadership that was happening in between those press conferences.

There were things that we pushed so hard on that we finally got some budging, but it was often too late. I am glad to see that the incoming governor and the mayor are setting up a different type of relationship and one that hopefully can be focused on doing what's best for the people of the city of New York. I have been happy that the mayor is pushing, where we can't legally, on vaccine mandates or testing. I think he's been wrong on not doing the mask mandate, and I've been clear about that and I'm hoping that that changes, especially in doors. I'm glad that the incoming governor is planning to push that and people should use the tools that they have in their toolbox.

Brian Lehrer: Do you support the mayor's vaccine mandate for restaurants? For example, we had some discussion earlier in the show about how some people find it racially discriminatory considering rich neighborhoods tend to have low vaccination rates.

Jumaane Williams: There is issues of race, class privilege pervasive. I can't push back on that. I will say the time for simple voluntary vaccinations is long past. We have to put some mandatory stuff into place. We do want to make sure we honor people's rights since that's important, but the rights of other folks not to die because of what you do is also important. We see that balance all the time from vaccines we have to get to people who have to follow traffic lights [inaudible 00:10:01]

We must push the mandates to eliminate this point because we are seeing in real-time how this disease is developing. People who aren't vaccinated are actually the problem at this moment in time. I think the mask mandates have to belong to all of us. So I want to be clear about that, but it is the reluctance in the vaccine hesitancy that's really driving where we are right now. I'm 100% in support of vaccine mandates to the extent that they're legal or testing.

I do think the testing has to be-- If you're not going to get the vaccine, which you should, and we should find ways to mandate it, if you're not, it needs to be twice a week and not once a week. Once a week is not enough.

Brian Lehrer: Another topic that you and Kathy Hochul mentioned in your joint statement last night that I know is very important to you was expediting the state's rent relief funding for tenants and owners alike. Do you get the sense she has a plan for ramping up what we all know has been an excruciatingly slow rollout of those funds or is it too early to know if she has a plan?

Jumaane Williams: I brought it up, I got the sense that she is acutely aware that the governor just didn't do this. It's remarkable how badly he botched this and his focus seemed, I guess, on other things. I'm glad to hear that she is focused on actually getting it done. We had a great conversation on the speed at which we can try to get that done, and the focus being on getting it to the folks who need the most help. Obviously, you have to try to minimize fraud. We want to do that, but you can't use that as an excuse to stop people from getting it who absolutely need it.

I'm looking forward to that happening very quickly after she takes into office, according to what she said to me. I'm looking for a swift change in what we've seen to what hopefully is coming.

Brian Lehrer: What about the excluded workers' fund. This is not the first thing that I would have expected to hear out of Kathy Hochul's mouth. I have a feeling you brought that up in your meeting yesterday. For listeners who don't know that term, would you explain who that refers to, excluded workers and what you want the state to do for them, and if she committed to anything.

Jumaane Williams: The excluded worker funds, which is probably the first and biggest in the nation, is to make sure that everyone has the assistance that they need, and not exclude anyone. Primarily, it includes immigrants, and people who don't have the legal status of citizenship. Actually, a large part of our workforce that keeps this city going, getting the least amount of help. Shout out to the state legislature for getting this done so we can have a fund that goes to these folks. There was so many stringent blockades in place that it was difficult for folks to get it.

I've heard some mixed results about it. I've heard people and organizations saying, "Actually, it's starting to flow better now since we applied pressure on the state." Some folks saying there's still some hiccups. I will say, from the conversation I had on all these topics, there wasn't concrete, "This is the next step commitments," but there were commitments to move on these issues in a way that I have to say didn't happen the same way with the previous governor. I think there's some reason to think we may see some things differently moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: Public Advocate Jumaane Williams with us. I see that the pinned tweet at the top of your Twitter feed ever since February is an article from The Guardian that says Governor Cuomo gave immunity to nursing home executives after they made big campaign donations to him. Well, today, the Albany Times Union reports the campaign donations to Kathy Hochul are beginning to spike now that she's going to be governor. It says the donors include well-known builders, developers, attorneys, and healthcare executives.

Some have ties to Buffalo, others to New York City and the Hamptons. My question is, do you have any specific concerns yet about who is giving money to Kathy Hochul now that she's more powerful, and what they want from her that may not be in the public interest?

Jumaane Williams: I, in general, have an issue with the way money drives policy and the way money drives elected officials in positions that sometimes aren't the best for the people of this state and even the country, even though they might be helpful for the person who's getting the money. What I will say is that hasn't changed. I think there's a lot of discussions that need to happen on the political end very shortly, and I'm looking forward to those conversations and some questions that I keep getting asked that I'm trying to wait little while.

I do think right now, what I want to focus on and I hope everyone focus on is the transition of power. I think New York state deserves to have a little bit of calm while we do that. There is going to be a historic change. Some of these questions and concerns that I have had for a very long time haven't gone away, but I think they're better suited for after the transition occurs.

Brian Lehrer: We've got about three minutes left. I've been sticking to the issues so far, which is what we try to emphasize here rather than the politics, but the politics is a thing too. Hochul has promised to select a lieutenant governor from New York City because she's from upstate. Are you under consideration for lieutenant governor?

Jumaane Williams: I will say, obviously, I ran for that position before. There were a lot of differences between the both of us and how we thought the state should go forward, how that position should be used and what was needed in Albany. Those don't just go away. I will say, again, that's a discussion for later, and that is not the position I'm interested in.

Brian Lehrer: That's not the position you're interested in. Is there a possibility that you'll run for governor against her next year?

Jumaane Williams: Well, again, I think what is clear is that even before this report, I have been exploring and considering ways to challenge the current governor who I felt wasn't doing a good job. I will say I'm still actively considering that type of run for the gubernatorial. Again, I do think that kind of conversation should happen after this transition comes in. I think there's a moment that we should look at that is going to be the first women who are coming after a very terrible, I believe, Governor's leadership in the state, that for too long, many people allowed to happen, and there was a few of us who were really trying to show people that this is harmful for the state even before this report, and I'm proud that I was one of them.

I think they're conversations I'm happy to have, I'm looking forward to continuing that kind of conversation with you. I just do think we should wait for the leadership change to happen.

Brian Lehrer: Not lieutenant governor in waiting, as he says he's not interested in that position, but New York City Public Advocate and possible candidate in the Democratic primary for governor next year, Jumaane Williams. Always great to talk through so many issues with you. Public Advocate, thank you for coming on.

Jumaane Williams: Same here. Thank you very much. Peace and blessings to everyone.

Brian Lehrer: The Brian Lehrer Show is produced by Lisa Allison, Mary Croke, Zoe Azulay, Amina Srna, and Carl Boisrond. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen works on our daily podcast. That's Juliana Fonda at the audio controls most days along with Liora Noam-Kravitz. I'm Brian Lehrer.

 

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