'Peril and Significant Possibilities' From Trump to Biden

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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC, good morning again, everyone. It's not every day that a new book comes out and makes news that leads to a grilling of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Congress, but that has happened with a new book by Bob Woodward and Robert Costa, called Peril, which revealed that Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley, General Milley was in touch with China in the final months and weeks of the Trump administration to reassure them that Trump was not going to launch a military strike to help himself not turn over power to Joe Biden. Here is Milley last week in a statement to the Senate about those calls on October 30th and January 8th.

Mark Milley: The calls on 30 October and 8 January, we're coordinated before and after with Secretary Esper and acting secretary Miller staffs and the interagency. The specific purpose of the October and January calls were to generate or were generated by concerning intelligence which caused us to believe the Chinese were worried about an attack on them by the United States. I know, I am certain that President Trump did not intend to attack the Chinese, and it is my directed responsibility and it was my directed responsibility by the Secretary to convey that intent to the Chinese. My task at that time was to de-escalate.

Brian Lehrer: General Milley also testified about the reporting in the book that there was widespread concern at the end of Trump's term about his mental state in the context of his potential launch of a nuclear strike.

Mark Milley: Later that same day, on 8th January, Speaker of the House Pelosi called me to inquire about the President's ability to launch nuclear weapons. I sought to assure her that nuclear launch is governed by a very specific and deliberate process. She was concerned and made various personal references characterizing the president. I explained to her that the President is the sole nuclear launch authority, and he doesn't launch them alone, and that I am not qualified to determine the mental health of the President of the United States.

Brian Lehrer: We'll hear more from general Milley's testimony related to the book as we go and with us now is co-author Robert Costa, who you may also know is a Washington Post political reporter and former host of Washington Week on PBS. The new book, once again, is called Peril. Hey, Robert, thanks for coming on for this. Welcome back to WNYC.

Robert Costa: Great to be back with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Pertinent to that last clip, many sources in your book talk about a decline in President Trump's mental capacity leading up to Biden's inauguration. You read about one source describing him as all but manic, screaming at officials and constructing his own alternate reality about endless election conspiracies, though we heard general Milley downplay it there and say he wouldn't really characterize a president's mental health state, he wouldn't feel qualified, and he said that to Speaker Pelosi. What's the big picture of what was going on then with respect to that?

Robert Costa: The big picture is that this was not just a concern at the end of the Trump presidency. It began when Trump was elected. Early in our book, we reveal for the first time that then House Speaker Paul Ryan was studying psychiatric manuals and articles about narcissistic personality disorder to understand then President-Elect Trump, that the House Speaker could not figure out a way to understand this man other than turning to psychiatric manuals. That's how the Trump presidency began and it ended with the senior officer in the US military based in our reporting, though he can't give a formal diagnosis, was deeply worried on his own in an informal way about the President's mental health and this pervaded the ranks of the US government.

Brian Lehrer: That's why he, at the direction of Trump's own Defense Secretary, contacted China to reassure them that there wasn't going to be a nuclear strike?

Robert Costa: The China calls were prompted by US intelligence. Our book shows that four days before the election, October 30th, 2020, and two days after the insurrection, January 8th, 2021, Milley who has a long-standing relationship with General Li, the head of the People's Liberation Army, Milley's worried that, based on intelligence, the Chinese are somehow on edge about a possible US attack, a wag the dog attack. Milley knows that Trump does not want to attack China, we state that clearly in the book, but he wants to de-escalate the situation. Before the election, and then after the insurrection, he has those conversations on a backchannel top-secret line. When I say top-secret, it doesn't mean subversive in a secret way. That's just the classification for the calls.

Brian Lehrer: When Trump responded to your book, these revelations by accusing Milley of treason, that's just Trump being Trump and the way that he basically accused anybody who was trying to protect the country from his excesses of the same thing, right?

Robert Costa: As you know, as a journalist, anytime someone cherry-picks a quote, it can lose its context. Page 129 of our book has Milley telling General Li, "Look, if there's ever an attack, you'll know. We'll be communicating." The next few paragraphs are rarely cited by some of these Republicans who are calling for treason, saying Milley committed treason. They're not reading the full conversation, which Milley states based on our reporting to Li, that, "Look, history has always shown a build-up. There's always been communication behind the scenes before these escalations and attacks. Cool down, don't worry, we're not going to attack." The whole purpose was to calm down the Chinese, not to give sign some wink-wink about an attack.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another clip of General Milley on Capitol Hill last week. In this one, Indiana Republican Congressman Jim Banks cites reporting from your and Bob Woodward's book that General Milley saw certain conservative news outlets like Newsmax and the Epoch Times as terrorist organizations. This begins with Congressman Banks.

Jim Banks: Do your notes about January 6 reference both Epic Times and Newsmax as on a list of domestic terrorists?

Mark Milley: I'm not recalling this conversation at all.

Jim Banks: It's in the book.

Mark Milley: It may be in the book, I haven't read the book. I'm not recalling a conversation about Newsmax, Epic Times.

Jim Banks: Do you have a notebook that lists Newsmax and Epic Times as domestic terrorists as recounted by the Bob Woodward book Peril. Is Bob Woodward lying to us in the book?

Mark Milley: I don't know, I don't recall any conversation about Epic Time.

Jim Banks: Do you believe that Newsmax and Epic Times are domestic terrorists or that [unintelligible 00:07:35]

Mark Milley: No, not at all. I don't think Epic Times nor Newsmax are domestic terrorist organizations. I believe they are--

Jim Banks: Will you produce [crosstalk] to this committee [crosstalk] relate to Bob Woodward in the book that you listed different groups are responsible for January 6?

Mark Milley: Sure, absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: First of all, Robert, I'm sure you're angry with Congressman Banks for not giving you credit as co-author and just referring to it as Bob Woodward's book, but what's the reference in the book that he was making there?

Robert Costa: Well, I'm not angry at all. People can say whatever they want. It's our job just to report as you know. What Congressman Banks who is one of these rising forces in the House GOP there is referencing is a part of our book, where we report on a private notebook that Chairman Milley has, where he's in almost free form, recollecting what happened on the 6th during the insurrection and what are the forces that animated that destructive moment in American politics and American democracy?

He notes some media organizations as part of the firestorm that led to this whole thing unfolding as it did. Milley was under oath during that congressional testimony. What I heard there was simply, "I don't recall a conversation. We're reporting on a notebook, not a conversation."

Brian Lehrer: What is that mean? Because the Republicans who are raising this as a public issue, stemming from your book, are trying to make a case that there's a bias even at the top levels of the Joint Chiefs of Staff against conservatives?

Robert Costa: What our book shows is that there's a real concern at the highest levels of the military but also in the Democratic Party and in aspects of the Republican Party at some levels, about how power is used and how power is wielded in this country. What the Milley notebook seen in chapter in our book shows is that power is much more fluid now in American politics in the eyes of many who operate within it.

What I'm trying to say, and in briefest way as possible, is that now people like Steve Bannon, Conservative News organizations, and podcasts, people on the outside sometimes wield more influence than those on the inside. That if you're writing about the Republican party today, you can't just write about Kevin McCarthy, Mitch McConnell. You have to write about the forces on the outside that are driving these core voters, these grassroots activists. It's a whole galaxy of organizations and people beyond just the formal corridors of power.

Brian Lehrer: My guest is Robert Costa, co-author with Bob Woodward of a new book Peril, mostly about the last year of the Trump administration. I saw you tweet the other day that one thing from the book that's not getting enough attention is something called the Eastman memo. What's that?

Robert Costa: It really is significant, at least to me and Woodward, in the sense that John Eastman, a conservative lawyer, author of Six-Point Plan, he memorializes in a six-point plan, a two-page memo, how Pence could throw the election to the House of Representatives to deny electors from being considered. Think about that, effectively throwing out millions of votes with the wave of a hand on January 6. This isn't just some chitchat idly in the Oval Office. This is a memo that's presented to top Republicans like Senator Mike Lee trying to get the buy-in of major conservatives presented to Pence and his team.

Then it's a memo that's followed up on. One of the most important scenes in the book is January 4th, 2021, John Eastman, this conservative lawyer, pushing Pence to deny electors. Pence, Trump, Pence's lawyers in the Oval Office and Trump is really going at Pence, badgering him, "Listen to Eastman, follow Eastman's advice." They wanted to push Pence over the edge. It could have caused a constitutional crisis. Who knows what would have happened if electors were denied or Pence somehow walked away from the lectern?

The 30,000-foot view here is so often January 6, when we started out this project early on, seemed like an insurrection that was spurred by a rally in the President's speech in some ways or was an event of the day. Actually, it was, as the New York Times editorial board said over this weekend, referencing our book, a far darker than previously known, and much more of a bloodless, legal and political battle in the days prior.

Brian Lehrer: In fact, for all the credit that Pence has gotten for upholding the constitution and certifying the election, you write about how Pence gave serious thought to not certifying the election results. How close did he come?

Robert Costa: Quite close, and he was listening to the President to the absolute 11th hour. That scene in the Oval Office of Pence, and Trump one-on-one, the dealmaker trying to make the final close with Pence. Trump, based on our reporting, waves his hand out to the mobs outside gathering on Pennsylvania Avenue ahead of January 6th. He says to Pence, "Wouldn't it be cool if you had the power to stop Biden's certification and it wouldn't be cool if they said you had the power?" Pence says he does not have the power but it was the temptation of power on the plate. The presidency effectively being put on the table, Trump to Pence.

Brian Lehrer: The title of your book Peril, it refers to the President, not just those last days of the Trump presidency, right?

Robert Costa: The title comes from a line in Biden's inaugural address about "this Winter of Peril" and what a phrase for that transition period. The winter of peril has now become a spring and summer and fall of peril. Out in the States, Trump allies are getting installed and elected to different positions ahead of the 2022 election. Trump's out on the campaign trail himself and President Biden faces major peril from the fallout in Afghanistan to a stalled spending package on Capitol Hill and an ongoing global pandemic.

Brian Lehrer: Another controversy today, I don't have to tell you or our listeners, is Biden's withdrawal from Afghanistan. It's seen as a Biden controversy. You write about the Trump prelude and stage setting for that his attempts to remove all troops from Afghanistan, which he did not do. The peace talks that he facilitated with the Taliban seem to have had a lasting impact according to General Frank McKenzie. Now, General McKenzie, listeners, is the commander of the United States Central Command which oversees military operations in the Middle East. Here, he is speaking to the House Armed Services Committee last Wednesday, saying that Trump's Taliban agreement had a "pernicious" effect on the ultimate fall of the Afghan government.

McKenzie: I think the Doha Agreement and the signing of the Doha Agreement had a really pernicious effect on the government of Afghanistan and on its military. Psychological more than anything else, but we set a date certain for when we were going to leave, and when they could expect all assistants to end. For the first time, there was something out there in front of them.

Brian Lehrer: Robert, what new light do you shed on the Doha Agreement between Trump and the Taliban in your book?

Robert Costa: It's such an important point, Brian, because so much attention has been given to Biden in the spring of 2021, making a decision to withdraw. We show Blinken and Austin, two top cabinet members pushing back on it, at least initially, trying to slow it down. So much of the Afghanistan story does not happen in a vacuum during the Biden presidency. Trump himself pushing outside of the usual channels in November of 2020, beyond the Doha Agreement, to have a swift withdrawal, alarming Milley, alarming National Security Adviser at the time, Robert O'Brien. You had the President himself really pushing hard Trump to get out of Afghanistan, and this was a disruption to policy, to say the least before Biden even takes office.

Brian Lehrer: What impact do you think those talks with the Taliban had?

Robert Costa: The talks of the Taliban clearly kept people-- It kept the Taliban from attacking US troops for a long time. At the same time, it didn't have any conclusion for where Afghans policy was going to go. There was no real conclusion about where this would all end. The Taliban are waiting and waiting, but there's no real withdrawal plan that makes sense on the horizon. The Taliban rest easy thinking that the US is just going to leave, but the withdrawal was never fully articulated by the Trump administration.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go in about three minutes. What was it like to work with Bob Woodward on an investigative book like this?

Robert Costa: He's a reporter's reporter, go back, dig, get documents, emails, text, diary entries, transcripts, keep asking further questions. He's a tireless colleague. It was a joy to work with him to have someone so old school, a reporter's reporter, really driving me to ask more questions, to do more interviews, and for a daily reporter, like myself, to jump out of that fray for nine months and to go into a bunker, interviewing people as they sit on a couch in their house for five or six hours. It's a whole new skill set. I tell my friend, it was like getting a PhD and reporting.

Brian Lehrer: What's next for you? For our listeners who know you from Washington Week or read you in the Washington Post, but you haven't had an article a long time because you've been on this book leave, now, the book is done, what's next for Robert Costa?

Robert Costa: I just go right back to reporting. This story on American democracy is the big story of our time and Peril hits that we put as much as we confirm in the book, but the story continues with the January 6 committee in the house. There's further questions to be asked. Where is this all going? Where is the Republican Party going to go? Where is the civic fabric going to unravel? All these questions I want to report out in the coming year.

Brian Lehrer: One last clip and a last-minute that you referred to in the book, this is Trump, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think this is from January 6 itself that rally?

Donald Trump: We will never give up, we will never concede. It doesn't happen. You don't concede when there's theft involved.

Brian Lehrer: Way after the election. Give us the context of that and what you think it portends for the future that you'll be covering when you go back to daily reporting?

Robert Costa: You see President Trump out there on the campaign trail. Woodward and I joke about this about how, "You have to cover Trump now. Take him seriously. He's using this warlike language to his supporters at this time. 'We're never going to surrender. The election was stolen. We need power back.' He has total political capital in the GOP. Pay attention. Do not look away. Cover at all."

Brian Lehrer: Washington Post's political reporter, former host of Washington Week on PBS, and now the co-author with Bob Woodward of the new book Peril, Robert Costa. Thank you so much.

Robert Costa: Thank you, Brian.

 

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