[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, in for Alison Stewart today. As we approach the long weekend, maybe you haven't got a big trip planned, but you're still looking for a way to escape the city for the day. History buffs, have you considered a visit to the FDR Presidential Library and Museum? Located just a train ride or a drive away in Hyde Park, the FDR library is the first presidential library ever established.

It's the only one in the country that was the actual library of a sitting president. The grounds contain the museum, the library, and also Roosevelt's childhood home. You can still see the room where he was born, which I think is so cool. The museum is full of incredible artifacts from Roosevelt's life, from his wheelchairs to drafts of his most famous speeches to his correspondence with Winston Churchill. Don't forget about Eleanor. The museum also has her papers and her home. Val-Kill is also nearby on the grounds.

Nearly 80 years after his death, FDR remains a figure of inspiration for a lot of American politicians. President Biden decided to hang his portrait in a place of honor in the Oval Office, and yet the museum does not shy away from some of the failures of Roosevelt's four terms in office. That includes an exhibit on his poor record when it comes to racial justice. Joining me now to talk about some of what you can find in the FDR library and museum and to talk about the history of presidential libraries more generally is William Harris, director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum. William, Bill, welcome to All Of It.

William Harris: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me today.

Kousha Navidar: It's wonderful to have you here. Listeners, we can take your calls about the FDR presidential library or about presidential libraries in general. Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call, text us if you've got a question about President FDR in particular. We'll see if our guest, Bill Harris, director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum, can answer it, or if you have questions about the tradition of presidential libraries, we can take those calls as well, or if you have visited the presidential library and museum and you want to shout out some things that you loved from your visit, that number again is 212-433-WNYC. Okay, so, Bill, presidential libraries weren't really a thing until FDR, right? Let's listen to a news clip from FDR's dedication of the library in 1941.

Reporter: A library built by popular subscription to house the archives, papers, and mementos of the Franklin D. Roosevelt era is dedicated to the nation by the President himself.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt: This latest addition to the archives of America is dedicated at a moment when government of the people by themselves is being attacked everywhere. It is therefore proof, if any proof is needed, that our confidence in the future of democracy has not diminished in this nation and will not diminish.

[applause]

Kousha Navidar: Bill, what do we know about why FDR decided to preserve his library for his home in the public?

William Harris: Well, there are multiple reasons, I would say. FDR was a collector himself. He collected rare books. We have 22,000 of volumes of his books alone. His administration generated millions of pages. We have 17 million pages of his documents. He loved naval history and ships models, so there were multiple things going. He also recognized that his administration was fundamentally changing America.

To have these materials available for research, to have them a public trust, I think he saw that and saw it as something important. The library can be viewed on one level as a place that one man viewed as his organization or it can be viewed the way it ultimately became and what he did, which was to give it to the American people and all the materials too.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. Did he set any precedents for establishing presidential libraries in general?

William Harris: He did. He shifted the entire paradigm of public ownership of presidential materials prior to that time, except for some materials that had been bought by the Library of Congress long after administrations. The materials were either lost or maybe donated or stayed within the family. That's not the case with FDR.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. Did FDR leave any guidelines behind for what sorts of things could be displayed or what should not be revealed to the public?

William Harris: Not really. He died in office, died before he could work in his library, work really within the papers within his library. He worked in the library while president, but he was doing his presidential duties. That said, he recognized that there would be materials that are sensitive and related to personal privacy that would obviously not need to be opened until there was an appropriate time. Did he realize probably that it would become the kind of archival and museum institution it has? I'm not sure he did, but I don't know that that would have concerned him so much. He liked to take chances and see how things unfold.

Kousha Navidar: While he was alive, he said, "Listen, whenever my presidency ends, this is what I want to be done with the library." He knew that while he was living. What do people think of that decision at the time? It's kind of bold, isn't it?

William Harris: Well, it's very bold and it was easily criticized if one thinks about it. It was people outside of the administration. Critics viewed it as a one-man ego show, as a boondoggle. They were rather short-sighted, I would say, because the Archivist of the United States, the archives was a new institution. He wanted us to be a part of the archives. There was a mixture of historians who did support this and who saw that there was a value of these materials being part of the public trust. Just keep that in mind. That had never happened that a president-- that was his personal property that he donated, which could have been worth many millions of dollars. He gave all of that to the American people.

Kousha Navidar: Then immediately after that, every other president sense just kind of fell in, not fell in line, but wanted to match that generosity?

William Harris: I think yes and I think there are a lot of other complicated reasons. Mostly, I would say, in addition to wanting to continue the story and providing these materials for study, but it was also think about the quantities of material and the complexities of them, especially after the war. There would have been no way they could manage them themselves. It made sense for them to go to the national archives.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we are talking with William Harris, director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum. Great place to go this weekend if you're looking for a day trip just outside of the city. We're also taking your calls about the FDR presidential library or about presidential libraries in general. Give us a call. Send us a text at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

If you've got a question about President FDR in particular, we can see if William Harris, director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum, can answer it, or if you have questions about the tradition of presidential libraries, we can take those calls as well. I would love to hear from somebody who has visited the FDR presidential library to just say how it was for them visiting or any presidential library in general.

Give us a call. Send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We actually just got a text here. "Shout out to the Richard Nixon Library and Museum in Yorba Linda, California. I remember visiting it when I used to go to school there. It gives you a lot of perspective of the man over and above just the Watergate scandal, which is still what most people associate him with." Thank you so much for that text. Yes, go ahead.

William Harris: I helped bring that library when it was a private institution into the National Archives.

Kousha Navidar: You did?

William Harris: I did. I was one of the team who did that on behalf of the National Archives during my Washington years. The collection's fascinating. Nixon is, in fact, a fascinating man. Understanding him as a person, I think, is so important to the extent one ever can in terms of the choices he made in life and what his achievements and his failures were.

Kousha Navidar: You were involved in the establishment of a bunch of libraries like Bill Clinton's library, George W. Bush's library, right?

William Harris: George H.W. Bush.

Kousha Navidar: George H.W. Bush, yes. What do you think most presidents are looking to achieve when they're creating their library?

William Harris: Well, it's, I think, a mixed set of purposes. First of all, to preserve the materials and to make them available. That is at the core of it. The museum, of course, to help understand what their roles are and how they interacted with their contemporary era, but these institutions evolve over time. When there's a living president and family and supporters, that's going to be much more sensitive topics on a personal level so that the Roosevelt library now, we can address things. The family, the grandchildren, they're very supportive. We do tell those complex stories, but there's an evolution that occurs over time in terms of how they tell a story.

Kousha Navidar: What do you think is one key to making a presidential library great in your experience?

William Harris: To the extent, the President can leave his imprint on it. I think that's very special over time, but also to the extent that they trust, frankly, history to sort itself out, that those stories will be told, that historians will study it from every direction, whether one tries to influence it initially or not, and to just have some faith in the American people in that regard.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to some callers. We got Susan in Highland Park. Hey, Susan, welcome to the show.

Susan: Thanks for taking my call. I just want to say that I visited the museum. The place that I love the most is a replica of a kitchen and there's a radio. You can sit at the kitchen table and listen to FDR explain-- I believe it's Social Security. He says, "Well, it's been accused of being socialism. Let me explain to you why it's good, why it's bad." The experience of hearing his voice through the radio at this table and hearing his vocabulary, the way he speaks at such a high level, it's a real contrast to where we are. I deeply appreciated that.

Kousha Navidar: Susan, we deeply appreciate you giving us that call and telling us about that experience sitting at the kitchen table and listening to the radio. FDR was the first to really dive into radio, right?

William Harris: Well, it's true, to the extent that he absolutely did compared to Herbert Hoover. He recognized that the medium was so powerful as did Eleanor Roosevelt. They were remarkably engaged in media and in a direct and personal way through that media that wasn't possible before. I love to hear that because in his very first fireside chat, the very first time other than his inaugural that he addressed American people in the living room, he said, "My friends, I am here tonight to talk with you." He's speaking with them as president, explaining complicated things. It touched people. It was new. It was meaningful.

Kousha Navidar: Susan, first of all, thank you so much for that shout-out, that endorsement of the museum. Let's go to Stephanie in Piermont, New York. Oh, I think we just lost Stephanie. I think she just hung up the phone. Stephanie, if you want to call us back, we'll get you. Let's go to Matthew in Staten Island, New York. Hey, Matthew, welcome to the show.

Matthew: Thank you. Thank you so much for taking my call.

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Matthew: I've been to the FDR National Historic Site many times. The one thing that I think your viewers should hear is how stunning the property and the views are and the fact that it's nestled right there at the top of the Hudson Valley. Not just the history that's there, but the property itself is absolutely breathtaking.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Matthew, thank you so much for that call. The property is also part of their home, is that right?

William Harris: That's right. It's interconnected. Your caller is absolutely right. It is a beautiful location. President Roosevelt's estate, the Roosevelt estate, was 1,300 acres along the river and back to the east. The library opened while he was president. Then when he died, the land around it in his home and the place that he's buried as well became part of the National Park Service, which operate that.

They operate the home and the National Archives, the library, but the area is so beautiful. What's special about it too is that he was a part of that place and the Hudson Valley. He treasured it. He considered himself inseparable from it. He went back there to recharge and he saw himself there at the end of his administration working. I'm lucky my partner works here in the city. I'll walk out and send a picture from the Hudson Valley.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

William Harris: He'll send a picture of whatever.

Kousha Navidar: Of a subway or-- [chuckles]

William Harris: 60 floors up. I think I got a pretty good deal of it.

Kousha Navidar: It's a perk of the job, for sure. Living in history, living in nature. We got a text here. It's interesting. It says, "Their exhibit on FDR, the New Deal and civil rights was so well done. It did a great job highlighting the complexity of this important and often overlooked issue." Can you talk a little bit about that, Bill?

William Harris: Absolutely. What we wanted to do with that exhibit and we had a committee of scholars who advised us because we're not experts on everything. What we wanted to do was shift the focus, shift the narrative, to have that history not be solely from the perspective of the Roosevelts, Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, but to have it be centered around the voices and the people who were fighting and challenging the system and fighting for their place within it.

That makes the collection exciting all over again because you begin to look at these stories not just from the top-down, the power-down, but from the people who are really working and holding their leaders accountable. These are tough stories sometimes, very tough. People are complex. Leaders are complex and their evolution over time where they start and what they become really helps us understand the decisions they make.

Kousha Navidar: Right, puts everything into context of the time that they were living. Before we run out of time, let's go to some more callers. We've got Kristen in Hoboken, New Jersey. Kristen, hey, welcome to the show.

Kristen: Hi. Thank you so much. I agree with what the other callers have said. I've been to the library a couple of times. One of the things that was so impressive to me and a good reminder was just how much history is covered from his time in office. Like you were just talking about, there are so many events and so many things that happen. It's not just about the Roosevelts. There's a lot going on in the world and it's a lot to take in and so well-done.

Kousha Navidar: Kristen, yes, Thank you so much for that call. I love that point that you made about, it's not just about the Roosevelts. It's about everything in context. I think Dan from Wayne, New Jersey has a part of the museum, the library that he really enjoyed as well in that respect. Right, Dan?

Dan: Yes. We took a trip up there just prior to the documentary about the Roosevelt. We saw the whole area, Eleanor's cottage. One of the things that my wife and I were fascinated with, we saw Madeleine Albright's brooches. They had them all displayed. Actually, we spent probably more time in there and looking at all the brooches that she wore when she was meeting dignitaries, when she was secretary of state. We just found it fascinating because it's not directly related to, obviously, Franklin, but just this whole area was fascinating. We found that just because we're expecting to see a lot of old stuff.

Kousha Navidar: Right, but then you got to see brooches. That's so interesting. Dan, thanks so much. Are you going to say something, Bill?

William Harris: Yes, we have a changing exhibit program so that it augments the permanent exhibit, the exhibit now. Black American, Civil Rights, and the Roosevelts is an exhibit that's up through February for two years. We do that. The Madeleine Albright, that was so popular, people to feel that connection through material objects or papers.

Kousha Navidar: Let's talk about the Black American, Civil Rights, and the Roosevelts exhibit. One of the biggest failures of FDR's presidency was his decision not to support a federal anti-lynching bill, a bill that just passed through Congress in 2022. What do we know about why Roosevelt was unsupportive of the bill? What is in that exhibit?

William Harris: The exhibit itself, as I was just saying, to contextualize, but also to shift and center the narrative around the people who were advocating for that. Walter White, A. Philip Randolph, Mary McLeod Bethune, who were pushing and pushing. Anti-lynching legislation was at the center of some of their efforts. It is a failure of the President not to support it. He's working in a complicated political environment. He needed the support of southern Democrats, who held most of the powerful committee positions in Congress to advance the broader New Deal program.

You can set a context, but sometimes I wonder, you've got a lot of political capital. Can you expend a little bit more of it? I think that's the conversation. I think that that's the challenge that our elected officials face every day. I like that we can have the conversation and we can talk about that. We can talk about the decisions. We're not running a campaign for FDR for another term in office. We're really trying to help people understand and make decisions of their own about participation in our democratic system.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to John in Fanwood, New Jersey. Hey, John, welcome to the show.

John: Thank you very much. I retired from the National Archives back in 2005 across the street from your studio. Part of my job was to go collect records for the various presidential libraries. I got to meet some very interesting people.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. John, thank you so much for that call. Go ahead, Bill.

William Harris: Well, the family of the National Archives is small indeed. We're a very small agency actually. Very small. That's great to hear from someone who worked down here. Of course. I know this archives down here. We do get to interact with a lot of amazing people. I'll say this. I'm going to name-drop. We hosted--

Kousha Navidar: FDR. No, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

William Harris: Cardi B. Would you have expected that?

Kousha Navidar: Really?

William Harris: Yes, exactly.

Kousha Navidar: Wow.

[laughter]

William Harris: I know, right? I can't do the Smiths that came before me.

Kousha Navidar: Sure. [chuckles]

William Harris: I can do Cardi B. It is very surprising to people who we get to interact with sometime. It's exciting because they're engaging in this history. It isn't just from the past, right? It's right now. It's the future.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, absolutely. We've got a couple of texts here that I want to read. One says, "I visited annually as a school chaperone for several years. It's a great combination of indoor and outdoor," as you were saying, Bill. "The grounds are beautiful and overlook the Hudson. The library has so much to offer any history buff, kept the students very occupied." Here's a question for you. We got about a minute and a half left, but I find this interesting. "Why are some presidents buried at their own presidential library rather than a cemetery?"

William Harris: I think it's a choice that they make. Roosevelt is buried on his estate. Truman's buried at his library, which was near his home. It's an individual choice. It's the choice that Reagan's buried at his library. It is a personal choice. It shows the president's connection with these places too that they view themselves as. That's part of them, part of their legacy.

Kousha Navidar: Another text here, "A question for your guest. Who pays to fund presidential libraries and archives?"

William Harris: The federal government, through the National Archives, funds the core mission activity. We generate revenue through ticket sales. FDR set it up that way, so that helps offset costs, and then private dollars that are raised through The Roosevelt Institute, our nonprofit partner. It's a complex funding mechanism, but it keeps me busy. [laughs]

Kousha Navidar: We got just about 30 seconds left. A quick question for you. What is one of your favorite pieces if you had to pick or something you want to make sure people don't miss? You got about 30 seconds.

William Harris: Well, I'm going to say his office just because I love that he worked in there. It's down the hall from my office. He picked out my paint color, which I dislike a lot.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs]

William Harris: That personal touch that he's in there. I could name 10 things, 15, 100.

Kousha Navidar: Well, listeners, if you want to go, check it out. Please do. This weekend, it's the FDR presidential library. We've been joined by William Harris, the director of the FDR Presidential Library and Museum and the person who helped make many more presidential libraries besides that. Bill, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

William Harris: Thank you for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely.

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.