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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. Puberty can be a bumpy time, as in bumps on the face because of acne, bumps because of incoming breast tissue, bumps in one's trousers because of NARB. An acronym for “no-apparent-reason-boner” a phrase that you'll find in our next guest's book titled, This Is So Awkward: Modern Puberty Explained. The Book's goal is to help smooth over some of the bumpy conversations parents have with kids age 8-18.

Before you even get to the first chapter, there's a list, title 10 Slightly Shocking Facts about Modern Puberty. Number one is the average kid starts puberty more than two years earlier than they did a generation ago, and puberty takes longer lasting almost a decade. Number three, body image issues have skyrocketed as equally affecting boys and girls. According to number seven, the product of choice when Aunt Flow arrives is not pads or tampon for this generation, it's menstrual cups and period underwear.

The book is full of science, cultural context, and first-person accounts, all are included to aid making important conversations with pre-teens and teens, a lot less cringe, no cap fam. People with teenagers will know what I just said. Dr. Cara Natterson is a pediatrician and New York Times bestselling author. You may know her book, Decoding Boys. She co-hosts The Puberty podcast with her co-author, Vanessa Kroll Bennett, who writes the newsletter, Uncertain Parenting. They're both behind the puberty-positive media company, Order of Magnitude. Welcome. Thank you for being with us.

Cara Natterson: Thank you.

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: Thank you for having us. What an introduction. I love the bumpy metaphor. That's a new one, Alison.

Alison Stewart: As I was reading, I was remembering back. I was like bumpy times. Hey listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Do you have a puberty-related question for our guests? Maybe you can tell us when did you begin to discuss bodily function, reproduction, hair, hygiene with your child. Maybe you had good luck discussing one of the many subjects that come up during puberty, and we'd like to share with your fellow listeners.

Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air, or you can text us at that number, or you can reach out on social media @AllOfItWNYC. We're talking about puberty-related questions with our guests. Dr. Natterson, what do we know about why puberty is starting earlier and lasting longer?

Cara Natterson: Well, one thing we know is this is not particularly new data. We have known girls enter puberty between eight and nine on average since 2010, and boys enter between 9 and 10. That data was available in 2012. It's not particularly new even if it's new to the listeners. The why behind it is still being unraveled. It's going to end up being a combination of factors.

Certainly, there are endocrine-disrupting chemicals that shift the way hormones work in the body. These are all the things that we put into and onto our bodies that change our hormonal flow. There's also stress, chronic stress is certainly associated with the earlier onset of puberty. Finally, it looks like antibiotics are also associated. Not taking antibiotics for an infection, but it's really the massive quantities of antibiotics in feed that then comes into the food supply.

Alison Stewart: Vanessa, how much are kids learning about their bodies from other kids?

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: It's interesting because from other kids could mean on TikTok, on social media, on Reddit, on YouTube. There's a lot of information gathering that kids do from their peers, not just in the age-old on the bus ride or on the playground, but all sorts of ways. It may not be kids they know, it might be kids they've never met before who have a million followers on TikTok.

They're getting a lot of information from people who are not necessarily great sources of information. The whole goal of our book is to give adults really good science and ways into conversations with kids so that kids know they can come to the adults in their lives and not just go to kids because they feel funny or awkward asking the adults.

Alison Stewart: Dr. Natterson, what's something that you have heard kids say that they're picking up from other kids, that they've learned about their bodies or about sex or about puberty that concerns you?

Cara Natterson: Well, a classic worry that I saw in my practice for many years long before I ever started writing books, was the worry that because lumps in the breast often signal breast cancer, kids are quite positive that when their breasts start developing, that they've got breast cancer. The two breasts don't develop at the same time, usually one develops first. One bud pops up first. This creates a lot of anxiety and kids talk about it. They talk about the experiences they know and the people they know who've had breast cancer and it fuels this fire.

It's worth noting, by the way, that 50% of all males also have some degree of breast development during puberty, and they too worry about cancer. There's a lot of anxiety that can go along with what turns out to be a very, very normal process. When they're not educated and when the parents haven't been educated because no one told them there's just a whole world of imaginary fear that goes on until they show up at the doctor's office.

Alison Stewart: Vanessa, in your book, each chapter has a specific template. Would you share with our listeners how the chapters are organized and designed and why?

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: We thought long and hard about how to organize the book because there's so much content in it and each chapter is organized. We start with the science because we really want to give people reliable data, research, and science about all of the physical and emotional, and social changes of puberty. The second chapter is about how things have changed in puberty and in our society around adolescents in the last 20, 30, and 40 years because so much has changed. The whole premise of the book is that puberty starts earlier, lasts longer, and happens with a cell phone in hand, and all of that has to do with incredible changes in our world.

The third part is how to talk about all of it because we hear from parents all the time, "Just tell me what to say. I don't know what to say." We are here to tell you this is one way in. This is another way in. It won't work for everyone all of the time, but there are tons of strategies in the book. The fourth part, which we hold near and dear to our hearts are voices from people just out the other side of puberty, personal stories and essays from people between 18 and 22 who tell us what worked from the adults in their lives and what did not work in their own homes and their own experiences.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett. Were talking about their book, This Is So Awkward: Modern Puberty Explained. Let's take a call. Carol is calling from Battery Park. Hi Carol. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Carol: Hi. Wanted to figure out how to address porn of son who's 13, I know he has seen some. I feel like it's so harmful when they see images that aren't really about sex or love and they start to question it. He hasn't asked me yet, but I feel like it's just about to. I know he has seen it. How do you have those conversations?

Alison Stewart: Carol, there's a whole chapter in the book about that.

Cara Natterson: There is, and we can give you a quick answer that's organized the way the chapter is, so I'll start with the science and then Vanessa can give you some tips on actually how to get into conversations. There is data that came out this year confirming what those of us who work in this field have known for a while, which is that the average age of first porn viewing is 12. At 13 there's a greater than 50% chance that he has been exposed already. That's simply the reality of our world. It's a function of tech everywhere and pornography being available one click away on all sorts of platforms. Given that Vanessa, you want to give some scripts?

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: Yes. We know that when parents think about talking about porn, there's a tiny bit of vomit in the back of their throat because it's so terrifying and stressful. It's our goal to help kids write a positive, loving, respectful narrative about their future relationships and sexual relationships. We want to get to them before porn gets to them because if we don't, that's who's writing the narrative.

Don't forget to talk about consent. Don't forget to talk about love. Don't forget to talk about how the bodies that are depicted in porn are not what most people's bodies look like because it can affect their self-esteem and their sense of what they're supposed to look like. Having all those conversations are also part of telling them, porn is not real these people are usually paid. That this is often not consensual and it should be. It is violent and aggressive. Those are not the goals in terms of our kids' future relationships.

Alison Stewart: Carol, good luck. Got a text, Mom of two twins here. I'm struggling with how to prep my nine-year-old for her period when overall hygiene like brushing teeth and showering, it's already challenging. Consistency is a problem for her, and I know having a period will acquire a new level of responsibility. Thoughts on this? [crosstalk].

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: This is a great question.

Cara Natterson: You are not alone.

[laughter]

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: We love this question. It's the first time we've gotten this question on the road, so thank you for this. What you're doing now is you're building all these hygiene skills. It's not just about the period. It's about all the wraparound hygiene requirements of this age. If we find ourselves telling a kid over and over and over again to do something, it means they probably need a little bit more scaffolding to get to the ultimate goal.

For instance, most kids this age don't realize that they have to actually use soap in the shower. They get in the shower, they stand under the water, they come out and they're still filthy and smelly. When you tell a kid to go shower, you say, "Hey, don't forget to use soap in all the important parts." And then they look at you and say, "Oh, okay." With a period, it starts with, yes, developing those habits. Also, having period products around so they know what they look like and how you use them, and how they're part of people's everyday lives, including how you throw out a used period product when you are done with it.

Alison Stewart: I thought it was great.

Cara Natterson: We're big fans.

Alison Stewart: Oh, go ahead.

Cara Natterson: Oh, sorry, Allison. I just want to add that we are really big fans of having visual cues and reminders for younger kids so that they can start independently checking off the hygiene list. Put a Post-it up in the bathroom, morning brush, teeth wash face, put on sunscreen. If they're at that stage, they need deodorant and by 9 or 10, many of them need deodorant, put on deodorant. Have an evening checklist too. It's really helpful for kids as they're building their executive function skills.

Alison Stewart: I also love this idea, this advice you had of creating a period kit. What should go in the period kit?

Cara Natterson: Yes. It's not just period products, although let's start there. For sure, having a couple of pads in the period kit. If you're talking about a period starter kit for a kid who's never gotten a period, you do not need to put a tampon in there. Tampon we can think of as period 2.0. At the very intro level, they're just looking for a pad. That you should also put in there, a clean pair of underwear. Maybe an extra pair of shorts or leggings or something to throw on in case they actually bleed through and get blood onto the pants or shorts or skirt that they're wearing underneath. Then period underwear is a total revelation. It's incredible. Some people are putting period underwear in the period packs as well.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about the book, This Is So Awkward: Modern Puberty Explained with Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett. Listeners, if you have a puberty-related question for our guests, or maybe you've had good luck discussing one of these many subjects that come up during puberty with your child and you want to share it with your fellow listeners, you can give us a call at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can join us on the air or you can text to us at that number. Our social media is available as well @AllOfItWNYC. After the break, we'll talk hormones and mental health as well as external forces. This is All Of It.

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This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Allison Stewart. My guests are Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett. Their book is This Is So Awkward: Modern Puberty Explained. Dr. Natterson, so many times when you talk about puberty, adults will say, "Oh, it's just hormones," when they're talking about kids being moody or having an attitude or making a tough choice or not a great choice. How much weight should be given to hormones when assessing a teen or preteen's behavior?

Cara Natterson: We know that the hormones that are in charge of making you sexually mature also circulate in and around the brain and they change the way you feel. They make you emotionally more volatile and kids swing in all different directions. Some kids wear those moods on their sleeve and they're laughing hysterically or they're crying a little bit more than they would normally. Some other kids swing more to anger or to silence. A lot of different ways that hormones can present.

One of the biggest issues is that these hormones are not slowly, steadily climbing in the body. They're really surging and then dropping and then surging again. It's that volatility that makes kids feel bad. We are in the middle of a mental health crisis in this country. There was data out just this week that says that out of all the teens in America in 2021, one in five, 20% of them met the criteria for major depression. This is a really, really big deal.

I just want the adults listening to know that if they're having trouble distinguishing between a mood swing of puberty and another mental health issue that is understandable and you should get some help doing that. Go seek out help from someone who is a qualified mental health professional.

Alison Stewart: Vanessa, I thought it was so interesting that you suggest parents learn to tolerate silence in your kid, which will be really hard for some people. Why is silence okay?

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: I mean, essentially our mantra is talk less and listen more. The temptation as a parent, even when kids are little, is to fill the quiet. Pepper them with questions. As they get older and sometimes get quieter and recede from us as they create their own independent identities, we are desperate to connect with them and it feels like the way to connect is by talking and talking and talking, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for them to fill the space if they want to.

I give out this advice, not as someone who's very good at not talking. I love talking, but I have learned that my kids and the kids that we work with need room to step into that because they are figuring out who they are and who they want to be, and that requires all sorts of exploration and self-expression. One of those ways is by doing it in a place where they are safest and that is at home. Lecture less, listen more, and try very hard to be a little quieter.

Alison Stewart: Dr. Natterson, you also suggest watching your language. Your chapter called Growth Spurts Weight Gain and Curves. What are some phrases or comments that might not be helpful and productive even though you think you're being both of those things?

Cara Natterson: Anything that has any judgment is felt very profoundly by kids. We know that. As these terms come out of our mouth, they are felt. When it comes to waking, this is really, really hard because sometimes the adults will narrate what they're seeing to the kids in their lives and tell them, "Oh, ma, you've grown. Oh, you've gotten curvy." This narration is not at all helpful for the kids.

In fact, something I learned from Vanessa years ago as we were first launching our podcast was the language around being the adult in the room who can step in and essentially insulate the kids from that other adult. Because sometimes that adult is well-meaning and they just don't know. Other times, they're just very naive or maybe they're struggling with their own issues. It's okay to step in and say, "We don't talk about bodies in this family." Or "We don't judge the way someone looks." Any language that comes through with any kind of judgment has a weight to it.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kevin, calling in from Denver. Hi, Kevin. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Kevin: Still a sustaining listener, but now I got to support the one in Denver at the same time. Anyway, for me, my kids are way out of puberty now, but it was an ongoing thing. With my daughter bath time, it started back then. I was starting out with the whole good touch, bad touch, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was a progression. There were no surprises.

For the more, I guess, feminine-related stuff that-- I had my input to her, but a lot of that other stuff, her mother took care of because there was a sameness and all that kind of stuff.

I was very fortunate with my son-- The same kind of thing, conversation started early, but I was very fortunate that I caught him [chuckles] when he was 10 or 11 looking at porn. That engaged in the conversation. I was very lucky about when he was 12 or 13 picking him up at a party and him and this girlfriend of his at the time were literally walking out from behind the barn.

Alison Stewart: Oh, boy. Kevin, I'm going to dive in because we've got a couple of other calls we can get to, but it sounds like you had a really good open conversation with your children, which is great. A text says, "My 12-year-old still looks like a child and all her friends are far ahead. She asked me on the daily when she'll get boobs. I've run out of things to say, please share tips. Also, how do we strike a balance between empowering her to feel comfortable on her skin and body without encouraging vanity?

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: We feel this question so deeply. We talk in the book about early bloomers and late bloomers, and it is hard to be one of those people. As Cara would say, it's hard to be everyone else in between also. For the kid who is asking when is this going to happen? First of all, we feel you. Unfortunately, the specific answer is, "I don't know. I wish I knew, but I don't know." The second answer is, "Hey, we can go see your pediatrician and just get a little more information for you about where you are in the stages of puberty, because there may be stuff going on that we can't see with the naked eye, but might give us more information."

The third thing is that there's a social impact of being a late bloomer. Other kids may be dressing differently, they may be up to other things socially that this kid isn't up to, so giving them some tools and some ability to participate in that socialization in a way that feels appropriate and safe, but still allows that kid to be part of things, I think is a really important step. Validate, validate, validate. "Kiddo, I am so sorry. This stinks. I know you are waiting and we are waiting too, and we love you."

Alison Stewart: All right. Let's try to get one more call in here. Jill from Brooklyn. Jill, real quick.

Jill: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Go for it. You're on the air.

Jill: Hello?

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on the air real quick.

Jill: [laughs] Thank you so much. My question is similar to the previous question. I will be presenting this to my kid's pediatrician. I have two boys, age 12, age 10. The 12-year-old is extremely athletic and he has no signs of puberty. My 10-year-old old not athletic at all. He's further along in the puberty spectrum. I didn't know if there was a correlation between athleticism, highly active, and I don't know, a delay or late bloomer, less fat. I don't know. My brain is just assuming these correlations.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's get Dr. Natterson in here. Hi, Dr. Natterson. What do you think?

Cara Natterson: It's a great question, and the answer is probably not. There is a connection between lower body fat and delayed or irregular periods, but that's pretty much the extent of the data we have in terms of connecting athleticism with physical development. That said, what you are seeing under your own roof is something that we hear about all over the country, which is puberty's going to come when puberty's going to come for each individual kid whenever it wants. That means that sometimes an older sibling goes through it later than a younger sibling, and that has emotional downstream consequences and deserves conversation.

Alison Stewart: If you've got like 30 seconds each of you, one thing you'd like to leave people with, Vanessa.

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: We want people to remember they always get to take a do-over. When you mess up, because you will mess up again and again and again, you have a chance to apologize, to try again. "I am so sorry. I blew up at you last night. It was totally uncalled for. Can we have that conversation again?" That can happen over the entire decade of puberty and it makes your relationship stronger.

Alison Stewart: Dr. Natterson, you've got 20 seconds.

Cara Natterson: Our philosophy is, it is never too late to start any of these conversations. It is also never too early. Just gauge the content of the conversation to the kid who's in front of you and just start talking. If you try one way and you hit a dead end, that's okay. You have many years, try another.

Alison Stewart: This is so awkward. Modern Puberty Explained, Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett, thank you so much for being with us.

Vanessa Kroll Bennett: Thank you.

Cara Natterson: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It.

 

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