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Here daily and most of our newspapers and we shall be limiting our investigation to those comic book dealing with crime and with heart Buswell there are more than a variant comic book sold in the United States each year as subcommittees and just law and only a fraction of this publishing feel authority is great but the majority of comic books are as harmless as a one eyed term sort of plot but hundreds of thousands of bar and prime comic books are titled to our young people of impressionable age. You'll learn during the course of these hearings that we shall also not be thinking of all crime comic books some of the types of crime and of our comic books with which we are concerned of been brought into the hearing room for your attention I wish to state emphatically that freedom of the press is not at issue in this investigation the members of the Senate subcommittee think the standard fantasy mystic you fall for under headings of things which center of Missouri and center langar as well as myself chairman fully aware of the long hard bitter fight that has been waged to achieve and preserve the freedom of the press as well as all the other freedoms in our Bill of Rights with we carry here so dearly in America we are not a subcommittee Bluenose century. We have no preconceived notions as to the possible need for new legislation at this point through want to find out what damage it. Is being done to our children's minds by certain types of publications which contain a substantially Gray of Saturday. Crime in the heart that's and that's only is the task at hand this is our mission since last November the seventh subcommittee has been holding many public hearings and the various passions of the whole problem of juvenile delinquency the volume of delinquency among our young people has been quite correctly called the shame of America if the rising tide of juvenile delinquency continues by one thousand nine hundred sixty more than one and one half million American youngsters from ten through seventeen years of age will be in trouble with the law each year a subcommittee is seeking honestly and earnestly to determine why so many young Americans are unable to adjust themselves into the lawful power of American society we are examining the reasons why more and more of our youngsters feel automobiles turned vandalism commit holdups or become narcotics addicts the increase in Craven crime committed by young Americans is rising at a frightening pace we know that the great mass of our American children are not lawbreakers. Even the majority of those who get into trouble with our laws are not criminal by nature never lasts more and more of our children are committing more serious crimes are subcommittee is working diligently to seek out ways and means to check the trend and reverse the youth crime pattern. We are perfectly aware that there is no simple solution to the complex problem of view of the like this. We know to that's what makes the problem so complex is its great variety of causes and contributing factor of our work is to study all of these causes and contributing factor or assists and to determine what action might be taxed or can be. Would be wrong to assume a crime and a higher comicbook. Arts by the major cause of juvenile delinquency. Be just as erroneous to state categorically that they have no effect whatsoever and I dividing the problem we are here to determine what effect on the whole problem of the causation of crime and our comic books do have. Some of my already stated by the subcommittee on staff we're aware that thousands of American parents are greatly concerned about the possible detrimental influence of certain types of crime and hard comic books upon their children three firmly believe that the public has a right to the best not regarding this whole matter of public has a right to know who is producing this material and to how many. Figures in and around numbers the industry. Drawn up Thursday is around Vesta geisha it's as but the first of several into question a bill or I should say disturbing pages of the mass media appeal I donated a subcommittee will be attempting to determine what negative effects events upon children are generated by other types of publications by the radio by television and the movies this is not to say that the juvenile delinquency as we know it is wholly or even substantially the reason. Of certain programs and subject matters presented by the mass media but there can be no question that the media play a significant role in the total. I will now ask the. Council to volley first witness. Centered people operate. On compliment parents on a very excellent site for the. Purposes of this committee and at this hearing here. I would like to reemphasize that. I feel that congressional hearings. Must be related to something that federal government has jurisdiction on. This subcommittee is. Looking into violation of various federal laws such as they direct a man Act violation of interstate commerce. And in connection with a subject matter here under investigation we of course do have a postal statute which prohibits states mailing or using the mails body distribution in dissemination of indecent and scurrilous literature here which will be part of the subject matter of this hearing that's correct and I think it's also important to. Point out that. Mr J. Edgar Hoover's report of yesterday. Showed that whereas they. Increase in population last year was five percent crime had gone up twenty percent and the particularly large increase was in connection with burg relays and stealing of automobiles. The interesting part is that the large part of the bird relays are committed by juveniles. Also juveniles according to the F.B.I. report comprised of three and sixpence percent of those arrested for stealing automobiles. And as the chairman said. We can't go into don't have all the answers but I do think it is important to look into the various matters which experts and Mr Hoover and other experts. Do bring out in connection with their. Giving the reasons body in place in juvenile delinquency. And certainly foreign crimes comics not a good kind of chairman said that a very small part most all the witnesses do have something to say about these. And we're not going into this hearing with the idea of condemning anybody are censoring the press are sharing that freedom of the press but. And bringing out in relation to the federal statutes. Something that all of these experts on juvenile delinquency are talking about at the center of the solution Taliban advantage is entirely cracked down Cherilyn. Imagine like them understand or blind spot this. Out and vote. And everything you can find is what they haven't care about yet that was a step and they were being told there's nothing but there's still hot. Share with pleasure and happiness the presence of the distinguished senator from Missouri Senator honey. I counsel. For the record respect and. Background. My name is Richard Clendenon fourteen forty five Ogden Street Northwest Washington D.C. I am a staff director of the Senate subcommittee investigating juvenile delinquents that. One done when I was blind briefly your education and experience in the field of view with the four McLendon matches of the questions. I'd like to say is a plea to the Senate Committee on to the length she feels that they have a very we all feel that we have a very able staff director thank you. Well prior to coming to my present position I had worked in the United States Children's Bureau for a period of seven years and held there the position of chief of the juvenile delinquency branch prior to that time I had served in administrative capacities in institutions for emotionally disturbed children for delinquent children and also I have had experience as a probation officer in a juvenile court. You are a friend of the work I am. On the top of the stop thinking. As you conduct and I gauge the comic book industry as a yes then we have. And our investigation into the comic book industry has been almost exclusively limited to those comics but it was the Ames center about horn and crime the particular type of comics to which I refer for events both pictures and stories. Which relate to well almost all types of crime and in many instances these crimes are committed through an extremely cruel sadistic can feel that if kind of acts. Now in connection with that question I would like to make it perfectly clear that our investigation has not been concerned with other types of comics many of which all authorities seem to agree represent not only harmless but many times educational entertainment. I should also add that. Even within that type of comic known as the whore or crime comic there are gradations within this group to that is some of them are much more sadistic much more cruel much more lurid than certain others within the same class or category. Now the Although our investigation has been limited to this particular segment of the comic book industry I don't we should not give the impression that this is a very safe a small portion of the comic book industry according to estimates which were provided up by the Audit Bureau of circulation and the controlled circulation audits the two firms that publish circulation figures there were about four hundred twenty two different comics or comic titles on the newsstands in March one hundred fifty four of these about one fourth were of the crime and horror variety. Now as far as all comic books are concerned although exact figures are lacking. Most. Authorities agree that there are probably somewhere between seventy five and one hundred million comic books sold in this country each month if one four of these are of the crime variety of comics this means that there are some twenty million comic books crime comic books placed on the newsstands of this country each month it's. Trying. To. Write. Well we have prepared a certain number of lines which show pictures. And taken from comic books of the type to which we have addressed ourselves. Now I would like for purposes the ghost ration to relate a very briefly and summary fashion six stories together with pictures illustrating these six stories which will give you a sampling of the type of comic books that we are talking about here now in presenting these I would like to say that these stories and these pictures are not atypical stories and picture that is that while it is not a random sampling Actually it's a very deliberate sampling in terms of trying to present the several different types of stories and pictures which do appear but these are not typical rather these are quite typical of pictures and comics which and stories which appear in this type of publication. The first such crime comic book is entitled Black Magic magazine. This is a cover shot. Showing the the cover art title page. Of the of this particular comic now one story in this comic isn't titled Spencer wherry. And the cover shot relates to this particular story you will notice that this shot shows in certain inhabitants of this thank you Larry which is a. REEDY atest sort of a sanitarium for freaks where freaks can be isolated from other persons and in society you will note that one man in this picture has two heads and forearms another body the body extends only to the bottom of his rib cage but the greatest horrible all the freaks in this but in the Fancher wary is the attractive looking girl in the center of the picture who disguises her growth test body in a suit of foam rubber. The final picture. Shows a young doctor in the Fanuc cerium as he sees the girl of the he loves without her disguise disguise the story quoted as the doctor fires bullet after bullet into the girl's Michigan but now this is an example of a comic of the or variety. The spec of the story and they never got here. Is a cover shot of a comic entitled fight against crime. And one story in this particular issue is inscribed on the stick in the mud. This is the story of a very specific school teacher who is proved to all of the children of her classroom with only one exception. The one exception is the son of a wealthy do man who has lost his wife who over a tenseness has a son that teach your ruse and was the father the following picture shows the school teacher as she stabbed her husband to death. In order to inherit his money. He then disguises her crime by dragging his body into a bullpen wary of corpses mangled and gory. The small son the suspecting the a stepmother runs away the job so that he will chase him into the woods where a bed of puts band is located. On the last fifty or. Kills the stepmother sinking into the quicksand in prying for help. The small son gets the stepmother to confess the team or did his father by pretending that he were both for help if she does stuff after her confession he refuses to go for help and saves to watch it step mother die in the protests that. The next comic is the title that mysterious adventure this particular issue of which this is a cover shot. Contains a total of six stories in which eleven people died violent deaths one story in the in this particular issue has to do with the confirmed alcoholic who spends all of his wife's concern on alcohol as a result the smallest one is severely neglected on the days a small son is the starting the first grade in school the mother asked his father to escorted to the school building instead the father goes to his favorite bootlegger in the sun sets off for school buy and sell and roots with son is struck and killed by a violent automobile informed of this it works the man returns to find her husband gloating over his new supply of liquor this next picture shows the mother. Killing her alcoholic bouts with an axe she then cuts up his body into small pieces and disposes of it by placing the various pieces in the bottle of liquor her husband had purchased if you look at the picture in the right hand lower panel you will see an ear in one bottle and I and another a finger in another and so forth. On the. Figures on the run up to circulate. Our sales. This character of the thing as against the more innocuous time the comics do draw ticks them otherwise disease appeal to the children greater or less degree than. The time that they're all more familiar with the harmless comic strip Well about one fourth of the total comic book titles that is the different comic book art of the crime and horrid variety. Now not all of those are as rough as some of these that we have shown perhaps on the other hand this doesn't constitute a not. Substantial segment of the comic book industry. But with this one imagine a month. That's right twenty million a month of the prime and hard variety. Now the next. From. That day is a circulation figure which refers to sales. From the industry well those figures senator are from the Audit Bureau of circulation and the control circulation audit the two organizations there are are are companies that collect and if you data on the circulation of various kinds of magazine or. From your work but I just wanted to ask what's going on that another question which I think might and I don't want to break into the. Presentation. We've come a long way the the Yellow Kid was the first comic strip Yes And then we went into the happy who live in the top. Good morning around Norman happened here in one ten of the courthouse United States Senate subcommittee on going to bank on faith that's going to meaning the first day of the scheduled today public hearing on the effect of comic books on the nation's Unless of the chairman of the spawn and subcommittee is Republican Senator Robert C. Hendrickson of New Jersey who was presiding the other members of the committee are Senators Thomas E. Henning's Democrat of Missouri asterisk the father Democrat of Tennessee and one liner Republican of North Dakota However Senator Langer was not present for this morning's session. At the moment. The committee is listening to the first witness in today's hearing Mr Richard Clendenon who is the staff director of this committee investigating juvenile delinquency Mr Grant family was with the United States Children's Bureau for seven years as chief father if you want to go in from the ranch and formally was a probation officer enjoyment of court. As we can on the air Mr Clendon and was going through the last comic book illustrations which were projected both by slide and by is all in this court room and. At the moment he is being questioned by Senator Henning so I switched out to the car and Mr Clinton a question and answered your question with the phone did I get it does seem to me I'm not sure whether the public case changed or not. Certainly the comic book industry which was born in another cell during the Depression years of the thirty's the later the last thirty. What prevented perhaps a rather than a reflex being any change in the taste of the public represented new idea that is to put up in a book form of this kind now just exactly why you had a translation from the type of comic and I referred to comic strip which appeared in an earlier day in which each separate day represented a different episode and were funny to this theory of type of step I really have no one no idea and no opinion on it now I would guess I'm not at all sure that I said in a buy failed to say I would like to say that our investigation really has not retained at all to the comic strip appearing in The Daily News. But rather the comic book. The next comic that we would like to present to you is entitled crime must pay the penalty. This particular comic. Has four stories in which twenty seven people meet a violent death. One story in this particular issue called Briscoe Mary concerns an attractive than glamorous young woman who gains control of the California underworld guys under her leadership the gang embarks upon a series of holed up marks for their ruthlessness and violence our next picture shows Mary. Emptying her submachine gun into the body of an already wounded police officer after the officer had aroused an ad created an alarm and thereby reduce the gangs take that on a bank hold up to a mere twenty five thousand dollars now in all fairness it should be added that Mary finally dies in the gas chamber following a violent in lucrative criminal career. Now this is of Strictly of the crime variety. The next comic book entitled strange tales. Has five stories in which thirteen people die violently. One of the one story with knife in hands has to do a big deal out there the story actually begins with a man dying on the operating table because the attending doctor is so absorbed in his own troubles that he pays no attention whatsoever to his patients it develops that this is the story of a promising young surgeon who begins to operate on wounded criminals to gain the money demanded by his spendthrift wife the other he has ruined his precious professional career by cut becoming associated with the underworld the Prima a criminal comes to get help for his girlfriend who has been shot by the police. When the girl is placed upon the operating table the doctor discover is the criminals girlfriend it is none other than his own wife. This picture shows the doctor first of all as he recognizes his wife and as he commits suicide by plunging a scaffold into his own chest his wife then also dies upon the operating table for lack of medical attention. The next comic the haunted appear. As four stories in which eight people die violently. One story in title head room has to do with a Finster who operates a cheap waterfront hotel. The renter of one room is a man she would like to marry. To win his favor she reduces his rent by letting his room during daytime hours to an ugly and vicious appearing man in a shot shows or renting the room to that individual Meanwhile there are daily reports that a murderer is loose in the city who cuts off and carries away his victim's head the hotel keeper suspects the vicious appearing daytime rumor and surfaces room where he discovers six heads hanging on to an on clothes hooks in the closet. She is discovered there by her favorite room or who is returned to the hotel for the night it's developed that he is the rumor he is that he is a murderer and the next picture shows the hotel keepers heads being added to the closet collection. From a psychological point of view however there is another story in the same issue which is really even more perturbing. This is the story of an orphan boy who was placed from an orphanage to live with nice appearing foster parents the foster parents give him excellent care and pay particular attention to his physical health insisting that he eat nourishing food in abundance a month later the boy discovers the reason for their solicitude when they sneak into his room late at night and announce that they are vampires about to drink use rich red blood. It might be said that right triumphs in the end however since the boy then turns into a werewolf and kills and eats his foster parents. They a final story. A is London in titled. Shock the suspense stories. I get it contains four stories in which six people person die violently one particular story in this issue is called also called the orphan this is the story of a small boat in haired girl named Lucy of perhaps eight or ten years of age in the story is told in her own words Lucy hates both her parents her father is an alcoholic who beat her when drunk her mother never who never wanted Lucy has a secret boyfriend the only bright spot in Lucy's light bizarre Aunt Kate with whom she would like to live Lucy's chance to alter the situation comes when the father entering the front gate to the home meets his wife who is running away with with the other man snatching a gun from the night table Lucy shoots and kills her father from the window she then runs Auburn to the yard in print and presses the gun into the hand over a mother who has painted in lies unconscious on the ground. Then through Lucy's perjured testimony at the following trial both the mother and the four and her boyfriend are convicted of murdering the as the the Father and are electrocuted This picture shows first mommy and then Stevie as they die in the electric chair. The latter two factors show Lucy's joy and contentment that it all had all worked on this she had planned and that she is now free to live with her Aunt Kate the last two comic books that I. Mentioned are present are published by entering the entertaining comic groups and I mention it because the publisher of entertainment comics group will be appearing here later this morning. Now that's a complete they've presentation of the are the illustration of the type of comics to which we are addressing ourselves pointless and. In talking about the child who was raised in the foster home and into I think where a lot. He said that psychologically that was disturbing like you say that well. Let me refer back to. The time that I was operating an institution for emotionally disturbed your children. I any child who is not able to live continue to live with his own family and with disturbing goes into an institution and then later is facing foster home placement has a great many fears both conscious and unconscious regarding the future that is Terry he is very very much afraid very fearful about going out and living with the family he's met them here but he doesn't know them and he's a very for fearful and insecure individual to begin with well this is the kind of material that I would I myself would see where. Greatly increased their youngsters feeling of insecurity anxiety and panic regarding you know placement with a in a foster family whole. List of friends aren't you produced a number of comic books with different titles are they all each one produced by a different company. No The are not the organization of the. Publishers in the comic book industry is really a very complex type of organization I would like to refer here to the atlas. Publishing Company as they are the public Atlas Publishing Group is an example Atlas represents one of the major publishers in the comic book field and incidentally there will be a representative of the Apple company appearing also at these hearing. This. At the out with company is owned by a man and wife team and Mr and Mrs Martin Goodman now the Atlas a company are publishing company public choose between forty five and fifty different comic types however these this number of up comic titles recorded by a purpose of fifty comic titles are produced through no less than a then some twenty five different corporations the Atlas organization also includes still another perforations who will be distributed on the public face of this particular event that shows several of a a while twenty of the different type of crime and we're in the comics they produce fifteen different corporations. Now although in the. Several of the other publishers who are published in the business of publishing comic books are smaller the pattern for organization is essential to the same in other words many times the organize themselves inform the two three four or more different corporate corporations the end result of this type of organization is that while there are many corporations involved in the publication of comic books the entire industry really rests in the hands of relatively few individuals. Now when you say that they organize a different companies they also organize in the companies that produce nothing but comic books are they produce other types of literature and no they also produce other types of literature many of them produce different kinds of magazines in addition to producing comic now not only is there a particular organization be engaged in producing both comics and producing and at that same time. Producing that is comics and magazines but many times they will produce both comics and magazines through one individual perforation within the group in this example for this particular moment which is a good one to get by using having an example here and there in her publication I've also bought only for the biathlon but they are also produced by a single corporation with the only app must group. That's crazy not yet that's right all of their their publications carry the Atlas trademark. In the course of your investigation if you have occasion to never had occasion to review. Scientific studies which have been made on the effect of. Crime our comics upon children and their relationship with the world link would say yes we have that. We have reviewed virtually all of the surveys and studies that that have been made as we've reviewed all that we have been able to find. And I might say that it probably isn't too surprising that the. Opinions expert opinions and findings of these studies are not wholly unanimous that is there is some diversity certain diversity of opinion regarding the effect of these materials upon youngsters even among those individuals who might probably might properly qualify as expert now in this connection I would like to submit to the subcommittee I.P.U. items here which relate to this matter but the effects of these materials upon young one of these is a survey that was made at our request by the Library of Congress which summarizes all of the studies they could locate having to do with the effect of comics crime comics upon the behavior of youngsters is it your desire Mr Klein down is this material because on the record or made a part of the Money file made at the latter I believe that I think that would be probably. What will be the order. I. Would also like to submit a letter which we received from Dr Robert Felix the director of the National Institute of Mental Health to whom we submitted a sample of these materials and this is his reply to indicating his feeling of the effects of this material and these materials that objection have might be made a part of the appendix direct all right here I have also hearing some terms of sort of a go for the person memorandum to I think that the people would like to read a compilation by the Library of Congress and I would suggest that probably without objection I will be made part of the a particular record. I have also here a compendium the general of the Journal of educational sociology which contains a study on the results of a study on comics and delinquency by Frederick M. Frazier who is a noted criminologist been connected with the University of Chicago. I have also here agree different reports. From the New York State joint legislative committee to study the publication of comics and these not only contain their own recommendations but it all they also contain quotations from a large number of experts who sat down with that committee consulted in there and secured opinions from the course of a joint We made one of the bodies pile. And finally I have two items here one item is a an item in title brainwashing American style which was recently issued to. By. A. Well it was a really a joint joint sponsorship it was sponsored jointly by a group in West Virginia and then the a judge Halloran who is president of the Minnesota Juvenile Court Judges Association participated in the development of the material objects and more than a course will be followed with sparklers literature I have also an item from the. Committee on evaluation of comic books in Cincinnati Ohio which contains a rather detailed evaluation of comics presently upon their to their standard these evaluations are related to a certain criteria that they have developed in relation to what they believe are the effects of these materials upon youngsters and finally a reprint from the Parents magazine in Title five title by a hundred fifty five comics magazines rated Objectivism will be included in the appendix right now I cannot hear it really adequately summarize the various shades of opinion which are expressed by sociologists psychiatrists psychologists law enforcement officials and other people who might qualify as experts in this field but I do feel that it is eminently accurate unfair. To say that there is substantial although not always unanimous scream agreement on the following three point. One. That's the reading of a prime comic then the reading of a Prime coming will not cause a well adjusted and well socialized boy or girl to go out and commit a crime to. There may be a detrimental and delinquency producing effect upon some emotionally disturbed children who may gain suggestion support and sanction for acting out his own hostile and aggressive feelings three there is reason to believe that as among youngsters the most avid an extensive consumers of crime comics are the very boys and girls least able to tolerate this type of material as a matter of fact many experts feel that the that excessive reading of materials of this kind in itself is symptomatic of emotional of some emotional maladjustment in the youngster now in other words I would say that in terms of all of these materials that all logged not completely unanimous there is very substantial agreement as to the three point shot. Give counseling one hundred one was counsel about that's going nowhere it's. One of the word I remember and. I'm sure that many of us do the enjoyment which some of us have of her tender age read the heart story read here Alan pope. Many of us read Sherlock Holmes. There was a modus operandi for certainly Manning and I suppose that is the basis of the modern crime story of the beginning genesis of crime and certainly nothing more. Calculated to. Bring a certain degree of terror and jailed with a spine of a youngster than the fall of the House of Usher blacks have had in the pendulum. Many of those times the stars of the French Revolution the. Hands of the. Outing for the crowd most of the time of our talk now how do these differ and your opinion on that in these. These comic books and the manner in which these things are presented graphic as they are. Being pictured already are but these books to our other profusely illustrated by. Some get some pictures that you never forget I can remember many myself enough. How does that sort of thing differ from from the things that many others read this as a youngster. Well I think that there are certain differences perhaps not so much in the content of the material as in it's out of the you know does it white distribution and greatly increased consumption Now frankly I do think that there are some differences in the end even in the material that. Itself we end in preparation for these hearings We also reviewed blood sample. I have here to reprints of Nick Carter. Which were very popular during an earlier era and really Carter as the so-called right as our father as you know it's a reputation and in its own day would indicate is really rather tame reading compared to this kind of material but is it this is is really much more lurid material then it would seem to me that of course the depict Oriole presentation all of the big colors and so on and so forth represents the something that is different and finally the only other difference that I could point to would be the fact that this is very widely available at ten cents a copy on newsstands everywhere that is it is that not only is it available but the youngster doesn't have to seek Him seek it out that if you know the the material is there ready to wear a you know be picked up and urged upon him a day at every turn now finally one of the comment I would like to make on that and they're true with. Your memory Horatio Alger gloves off and picked here are. Forswearing. He didn't pick them up on the stand through the barrier here in New York he didn't read the allowance or go to the barracks there but if they were available to Martha. They were halfway the next they were. Certainly they were rather readily available to the youngster but one point I'd like to make you see is that I am not at all sure and I don't think that I certainly wouldn't want to say that the material to which you refer was not also possibly at any rate detrimental to certain youngsters of that generation to that is in other words as the one point that I made the experts agree that none of this material either Nick Carter of the comics would make a well adjusted in well socialized youngster go out and commit a crime on the other hand this material may have given suggestion function twenty five and thirty and forty years ago to certain youngsters who read it just a certain of these materials may give exactly the same kind of support and sanction to youngsters of this generation. Asana question is this God. I mean I find it's harder chairman. Mr Clendon. These are not for the Mayo. Express to deliver but. All these have names on they at least the majority of these have a second class mailing from that actually very few of them and move through the mail most of these are are shipped by either freight or express it's a cheaper way of transporting them than to using the mails. In any event the post office part I think it is true but. They obscene it to an indecent. Prohibition section of the statute as to the use of mails does not. Prohibit the dissemination of these by mail at Nasr I I think the fact of the matter are Senator they haven't ruled that is actually these do not move through the mail. And as I understand it and now I'm I'm I can't that qualify as a any expert here but I understand that they do rule only upon materials while they would rule a bomb materials at the time the permit was granted but six months later they wouldn't be ruling you say upon materials that were currently being published because they were not moving through the mail. Or they had a second class permit yet direct which means that they had a ruling at the time that the permit was granted that is another word that they were admitted to the mailed at the time of the permit where it was granted but that doesn't mean that that you know they grant the new permit the next month when new materials are are turned out. To tell us whether late these things do move through the mail or whether they do not. They primarily they do not know but I mean are some scepticism out there I see that there are a few companies for example to do with scripting. And in that instance for example an individual copies with them a. Five You have to claim from the post office inspectors are there at all levels apartment whether these are prohibited of whether this document is not broad enough to cover it and yet there I inquired as to that and that is there is a reaction and now I am giving one individual infected reaction. Was to the effect that if some of these materials did loop through the names the Post-Office Department might last. Now the actually the ones that had come to their attention with good food to go through the mails than found no basis for question but they were aware that not all comics by any means are all find out and I'd like them well a person I know of no one saying that all crime comics ought to be ruled up but if they are obscene and the systems might do it differently. Anyway that's an uncertain matter of whether they do violate the Yes No I would say it is. My at the Council so if you're going to bring out the matter of by the Atlas Corp forms twenty five operations. Of New York City I believe that's holds true for the entire comic book industry and I don't so that's one reason why we're having hearings here. You mean The New York State is where most of the material is the pert are right shipped from hard won New York City is where the publishers are located in where the material is prepared now are conveyed the ads printing. Might be. Done in various places and that is a public area I get a printer to take on a job in Meredith Connecticut dark upstate New York far some of them OK I think Dan's the material after it it's been prepared to the printer the printer print it and then it shipped out directly from the printer without being returned to the publisher whatsoever if it's shipped directly from the printer to the various distributors over the country who in turn distribute it to the whole state. And connection with a decision you said that left had its own this vision system. You mean the wholesale retailer but you say well it's a gift to be at your cemetery is a company which supplies the whole place. And then the whole thing would supply the lead a life like a union you know yeah that's it disputed but is that true generally of the crime but of if you do they have their own distribution. Companies and no I would not say that it is is the usual practice although it is not it isn't in the. Other Some have their own retail outlets. Not so they do not to my knowledge. I thought. I must decline and I don't need that that's the name comic book is certainly a misnomer it's not the product of the publication these are not funded. But that's exactly wrong by what it is that accounted for that the line goes right. Down and I think anything for the. TIME On the question of how these comics are distributed what the general system of this pollution is I know sir I had nothing to do we do have both and it's good to hear it and I feel it's good to hold what we're I know that I don't know what to do with. Mr Cameron No that's undermining him or after all as a very unpleasant of Mr Clinton yes indeed humor is not an absolute something I think Charles Adams. Macabre. Drawings in the arc of magazine are very funny others think they're not the. Some people when I was abroad thought little emo was funny little emo frightened other children. And Alice in Wonderland and the rest Carol said or written it for a little girl always seemed to be needed in adult book and as a child I can remember not understanding their liking on evidence and I was drawing was a frightening because they were dark skinned and I've operated during So again we get into all of this question don't we have the rest of the relative lot of funny that one person one group of people are even at the nation's we've made fun of the British and their jokes and a lot of the fun for years. Are you think they're very funny as all of our people think they're funny and that the some of their people don't think there's a lot itself that it is a limited or productive to do to talk about things being humorous per se. Yet it's all in the eye of the whole. It certainly is on the other hand I would say that some of these the comic but downfall the one that I presented today is showing the Briscoe Mary when does the machine guns in the process of law officer and Mary finally end up but dying in the guy came by well and eight you know there may be humor in this particular situation but I myself would not recognize any of the words live and I'm glad they at the it would be to me tentative. If I'm ever going to spit in what is the proper fandom have to say as I. Social Worker expert. Relative to the fact that the larger number of these are books are found in areas where the children are. Less able to pick them. That is and areas I take it where there is juvenile Vermont's. Is that the established back beyond the questions while in so far as I know it's been a good there has been no real study of this made. As a matter of fact all along many people had long observed that youngsters who were seen to be upset me emotionally disturbed many times had seemed to have an abnormal kind of need to read these and the more started types of materials none the less media I became aware that only one thing didn't when we went out and attempted to buy crime comics in Washington and we found out that there were certain types of crime comics which we could purchase in only in certain areas of Washington and these were the more the more physically deteriorated and the areas of the city in which there would be higher delinquency rates now the I I believe believe that we will have a witness a scheduled here. May testify as to that point regarding his observations in New York City. But it doesn't leave it as far from the end there are investigations you'll find that the pages of the comic books are crime hard comic books are used for purposes other than the entertainment and if occasionally children. Yes we certainly did. And in this connection I'd like to refer particularly to the advertising matter appearing in comic books. Now at large number of the comic books and now I when I use the word comic books I really should be using the word crime comic books because that there are what are investigate. And relates to are a large number of these publications do carry advertising matter now the type of advertising matter is of the myth primarily as a matter of fact I would say more than ninety percent of the mail order a variety No I mean by that that you know it's the kind of the kind of advertising where they supposed to do to write in for a publication or for some article and so on and so forth it's interesting to note that advertising matter in these publications seems to be directed at both adults and children that is your well I have advertising that would seem to be of no interest whatsoever of an item which would be of little or no interest to youngsters on the other hand you have advertising that would have seemed to have little or be a role or no interest to adults now in that connection we have here a slide. With the shows and I a collection of items. Which would be all. To juveniles. Now this particular ad and we were interested ourselves in noting and noting it in Consequently we made we went ahead and made a slide of the opposite page to this particular ad. I. Which is a sliding I mean with years a page boy shows no less than two violent killings and the contrast actually just struck us a little bit on one page they were killing two men on the opposite page they were advertising dollars for little girls. Now there are still other ads that might be questioned on the basis that they would stimulate in a book youngsters to buy articles which might be deemed detrimental to their own safety and welfare and here is a love that picture. Which it shows a much advertises among other things it off with for sale for knives two of which are made for throwing and one of which features a twelve inch. Steel blade and it also often for sale doing saris crossbows with metal tipped arrows and so forth. As opposed to in the middle a half here although that is it that but size as a firing blank. To blank that summer one you had on the bar to Philadelphia last week. Nominated the starter and that. Started running but raised every thing like night and out of the one with me there was a time. There were about my weapon and I know this is one that Mr Chairman that was ordered through the mail and in the parking lot under it said starters best ordered through mail and advertised in certain magazines my memory right on that's what. I. Thought from the reply the one made whatever and there were others that worry about anything at all so I decided to switch nights and I will have it in the New York in the days when I was for another we heard of the ad output switchblade knives and comic books that we ourselves in the course of my investigations located no don't touch at now I would like to say one of the word about the advertising. And that is we also have a very real question as to whether or not if there isn't a possibility that there that's advertising in comics that is the ordering of certain articles advertised at the in comic name media to a youngster also being solicited by direct mail. For the salacious and sexually suggestive material now that is a possibility void will we also plan to explore through the presentation of other with. The London and have you in the course of your investigation found any evidence of subversion in the use of the comics crime cop car comics Well if you mean by that a deliberate and planned effort to use as a crime comics as a medium through which you're going to subvert the minds among all the youngster my answer would be no. Now. That doesn't mean that you know youngsters day care can not or may not be damaged. On an unintentionally and not not by Plan DOD like to make a further a couple of other comments on this particular question. First of all as I have said earlier our investigation to date has related only to the prime type comic In other words we have not gone into war comics love comics jungle comics and they've many other variety of comics now we do plan and will be I'm looking further at some of these other types of comics. Day they will be subject to careful evaluation and certainly that could be the world that we will be looking for such evidence of subversion in the course of that exploration Now one other item I would like to mention in connection with that and that is as I do have the. A copy of a newsletter which is issued by the Association of comic Mad magazine publishers. Which contains an item regarding a charge which was made after D.N.A. in the Rapid City South Dakota Journal on February eighteenth of the here which did make the claim that certain comic books were being utilized. In an effort to get certain kinds of part of communist propaganda a profit youngsters now at the other extreme I would like to mention one other item. And that is I have here a a. Page of which was the zine get it to appear. In a not too distant issue of a of a comic book and that's a little page containing three different pictures and they it's the it's pretty it's real and it's in the title are you a red dupe. And if the story of Melvin skull which gave her lives in Sabia Russia. And a he printed a comic books but some people that didn't believe that other persons had intelligence enough to decide what they wanted to read and saw the secrets believe game information for Melbourne for color press and then they end up by hanging dealt with that creep Now there's a little goes a Matthys down at the bottom. And it ends up by saying it's so the next time some joker gets up at a P.T.A. meeting or starts jabbering about the naughty comic drop at your local candy store are giving the one Thumper. We're not saying he is a communist he may be innocent of the whole thing he may be a dupe he may not even read the Daily Worker It's just that he swallowed the red line hook line and sinker and so at the other extreme some people. Try to make out anyone who raised any question whatsoever about the comet comics. Was Fired propaganda that's apparently undermining. And so far as you have been haven for the term and evaluate this whole. Enterprise for industry. The profit motive. Is the factor is. That you don't suggest that there's any. Conspiratorial attempt to corrupt the minds of young people not influence their behavior or their condo or the war or otherwise do something that's dramatic and there by future it's the business of making money out of this and it's right. That our investigating not thank you I think you're dead and I wanted to emphasize in addition to your having made it clear Mr van that. That it is they the business of making money and they don't seem to care what they do or what paper of a or what they dish out to these youngsters as long as it's out and then brings in the money and there seems to be an effort this are you a read do business as an effort to forestall are to. Bring such pressure to bear as can be against any attempt. Even look into art to examine this to see what it may be doing. I would interpret it. By throwing the suggestion out that anybody who question. Whether or not these things are beneficial must be a comment just because of our friend who had press my story so right right. Now and. The tsunami that hasn't yet come out as this was provided to us by a publisher Mr we again while you're investigating Yes it was I supposed to stop you from investigating what the soldiers I didn't know I think that he. Thought we would be interested in the items given to us. Was about to be published by him I the information that we had was that this would appear in a in a future of the case but it has not been published we have not seen it on the newsstands. Just Chairman this is a evolver very interesting they attempt to quote the Daily Worker to show that. Anyone who questions comics is a. Communist and I think they should be placed in the record along with the item that you spoke about from rap that quoted that are from Rapid City South Dakota I'm sure Grizz with this one I'm gonna say I'm without a tax on the I don't know they might have a record. You refer to Missed Again who is Mr gains for the record home that's again the publisher of the entertaining comics group. Entertaining comics group you distinguish novel crime comics No sir no sir the I'm distinguishing that this but my group I mean a group of comp but comics all carried the entertaining comics label. And although they may be put out by two or three different corporations but you lump them all together it's really but all practical purposes a single business operation and a single business operation in this case is the entertaining comics right now yes and as a chairman this legend is right wrestling as we. Keep this propaganda in the first the first sentence here in America we can still. Publish comic magazines newspapers slicks books and the Bible but. We don't have to send them to a censor for not yet. A Bible. The group most conscious Texas Broadcom comics are the common. Like tigers on. Yes that's a big. Look at the questions germs I think these guys any good questions. I guess that's all I do thank you very much. Number two N.Y.C. New York is the Proceedings of the U.S. Senate subcommittee you're going to learn one thing from the federal courthouse in Lower Manhattan. We have just heard from promise to let you climb down on the staff directory of this committee and. The next witness is going to the witness stand so let's switch to the floor as he is sworn in by the chairman of the committee Senator Hutchison of New Jersey. Dr did you have a prepared statement No I did not and would you proceed to begin your testimony in your own mind or. Going to this castle prefer to I think I might have recourse to question that she might be easier for a doctor if we had questions than counsel proceed Dr you state for the record your name your address your present occupation and title. I'm Dr Harris PAC. And I'm the director of the Bureau of mental health services for the New York City caught of domestic relations. That's a children's court that's the Court of the method relations comprising the courts the Family Court and the Children's Court. Would you give us a little bit of your background off your psychiatrist I yes I've been associated with the court for almost eight years. First in charge of the as a seeing a psychiatrist in charge of the treatment services. And for the past several years the director of the mental health services. Prior to that I was. Director of Child Guidance Clinic at the General Hospital here in the city and was a research and teaching fellow at the Bellevue New York University Medical Center. Dr Were you here this morning while Mr Clinton passed by Yes Would you care to give us your opinion. Typically used in relation to the effect of crime and horror comics upon children and children. I think I should proceed my remarks by saying that I. Really cannot. Pose as a expert in the field of comic books I when I was asked to come down I tried to make that clear and perhaps my contribution can only be a very limited one I have worked extensively in the psychiatric treatment of juvenile delinquents in the course of that have had some contact with the comic book situation but I have made no systematic study of it and cannot. Testify an expert in that sense. I think that my own general view from my experiences with children at the scene. And a court clinic. Would lead to the feeling that certainly we cannot look to comic books as being a primary I've caused a source for juvenile delinquency in that sense I would certainly support Messick rundowns view that. Normal children do not. Lead to crime as we have seen it in the car clinic because of reading comic books. On the other hand I certainly do fail. That. In areas of our city where there are many deteriorating influences at work on children which do and them up in our court. Certainly the comic books may be an aiding and abetting. Influence and may well precipitate some of the concerns which have already been set into motion by other forces also I think I could confirm the fact that many of the children we see. In our court clinics are quite preoccupied with the material of the kind of comic book that was shown here this morning no joke I have heard all read the statement that it kind of. Emotional email or just a great thing is exactly the kind of a child who would show them really. Is that true from your experience or are they attracted to. I can say that almost without exception most of the children that we do see and I think a psychiatric service of the court are reading comic books and most of them comics but this description as I said earlier I have not conducted any systematic study on that matter and this is an impression on. The children that you referred to Dr all children who are in trouble on that's right the children we see at our clinic are children who are already been. A judge delinquent by their children's court. You know doctor there were two particular stories I want to call your attention to this doctor and then and told this morning when I asked him about specifically the other right that one related to the child about to be placed in an instance in the foster home whose foster parents turned out to be. Where I will say something and the child self turned out to be aware and the other related to the child whose. Mother was running around his father was a drunkard and who kills or had killed in one way or another the parents and the boyfriend would you. Be able to tell us a little bit about the actions of a normal or Miller just a child to those two kinds of stories assuming that those stories A typical of the kind the child is reading. Affair number the children we see. Come from homes which unless there is already a certain amount of disruption. Sometimes this is of a superficial character and that both parents may be working and parent a child or simply left alone a good deal the time and other instances the family has been broken up by divorce or desertion and or there may be one or several parents who are either physically or emotionally ill. I would. Say from my experience that for such a child material which painted parent figures in a horrendous light. That for such a child he would be unusually susceptible to this kind of material because that would play into his own fantasies and. I think it's conceivable that. This kind of material. Presented in the fashion that we see in the comic books could give an additional thrust to other forces already operating on the chart. Center I think question. It seems that I already all read. The question then there are some. Grams fairy tales that there were. A number of those stories that related to the vicious mean overbearing stepmother. Sometimes the follower mother who was the Duke of. A step but it seemed the Pampa side of that relationship to some extent that. They have on grass. That. Kind of thing I don't I was a great deal that was what I hobbled in some of these things. Going back doctor and relating. Have started thing which have. Managed an operation by way of reading materials. That I've suggested post or add more recently and that sort of thing. How do we. How do we distinguish or can we distinguish. Between that songwriting. Which is given to very young children and has been for time and that sort of thing which is very. Talk about in some regards I think you cannot distinguish I think some of the motivations even the very plots you suggest are identical and it's for that reason that I think some caution might be observed in attributing to the cause of comic books. A major impetus for. Delinquency. Among the differences are however is that although the. Characters a drawn out rather than black and white line. There is. Some development of character. There is. If you like some human ness. About the story. Most of which are absent in the comic book materials which seem to. And large on the most gross of the most perverse aspects of the human unconscious which at least in the kind of material that were presented here. One might also say that although the I think is one of their earlier in the variants. The earlier materials were illustrated I think the type of illustration that one sees here. Especially the highly effective allies material a large place absent from some of the more classical fairytale imperiled you know I might say that a large group of thoughts of the youngsters that we see. In our court would be unable to resist grandma to the classical fairy tale material because reading disability as how prevalent in this population. I suspect that many of them react even more to the lock with of the parent that they are friends that were all that kept at a very simple level. I've just gone numb breast with him and proceed with the doctor you have seen the pages of the comic books. Or any Illustrated magazine used for teaching children what to do is it possible teaching to do good things when I met mental health ID self or is it also possible to utilize the pages of the comics to prevent crime so the children learn to do bad things. Certainly audiovisual apes are enjoying increasing prominence than educational techniques and I think that's a matter of fact one of our local. Correctional institutions and they are state training school if you thing a comic book type of presentation for a new arrival to help orient them to the place before they arrive that give them some real feeling for what the place at the back. Started in the comic books I don't believe should be decried at the point at the whether or not it can keep bad things I think very life laid. That depends on who is being taught and what their situation it I think the children many of whom whose growth need for growth and for expression. Are Being prostrated who are in a very deprived the two ways and certainly will look to the comic book for relief and for expression of the kind of a violent which is being stored up in that children who are suffering disturbances in their own family situations will be a backflip acceptable to the kind of material in which town fingered figures engage in all kinds of perverted activities. So that I think when one says that they made Pete a bad thing one have to qualify it in that way. Look for the person Dr Ury brother to reading the thinking please. And respect to the more classical type for right. Now the least common would have any trouble reading these things with the. Children whom you refer to some would some would have to look at the pictures and I study of our court population. We found that seventy five percent of the. Population who were brought in for other than school difficulties for at least two years were taught in reading and more than half of those were five years retarded and reading which means that made a fair number them of practically nonreaders and would probably. Barely be able to make out some of the material even in the simpler comic book. Thank you Dr The Terminator keep up with the protect you feel that. It's stable child who could without doing any harm to himself. Read this current crop of comics for years the ones that are not reading them are reading something else in the unstable maladjusted about who. Ought to be reading something else usually one who's found with the current crop of comics that it was I think the fact that Rand dictated that is not to say that. Stuff called normal children may not find some interest in that kind of material and without it necessarily for step of taking them into delinquency. Certainly. I think that we might talk about more or less desirable educational materials and it would certainly be one of the less desirable the protected you give the committee an estimate of the number of children if you will see an order from which you begin your conclusions we the approximate late about two thousand cases a year at the mental health services of the New York City children's court stuff. I think would be fair to say that in about fifteen are through my service we have seen about fifteen thousand cases over the past that year. And. Do found about the same conclusion other places in the country but to start a New York is typical of. What happens throughout the nation I think it is. And regard to what point well regard to the effect of foreign. Comics on children with other words through the earth discussion experience but others like August and. You find that they generally agree with you and your conclusion I think is meant to come down as indicated there is a very End Point. The view point of view I've given here I think you might die is something of a middle of the road point of view but there are those who are very much more concerned about the effect of comic book Night though there are those in town a good idea well. So you feel if you're in the middle of the road in the present I think that the apparent to me but I think you've been very fair. Your point of view charming the owner of Missouri Dr Octopus. I know we all appreciate very much your coming here and giving us a lot of them your thoughtful consideration of these meetings were tracked renter's similar. In many respects a very complex. For example we are led to believe are we not the crimes of violence are increasing. Here and perhaps in England. Yet that's probably figures and statistics can be very misleading and they're not. Yes. However I think we talk about homicide sometimes as in the chorus of a robber a perpetration a felony and sometimes it's as the Latin Americans say a crime of passion sometimes it's the sporadic sort of thing that doesn't seem to be accounted for by anything except that there are people with all of the ills to break the souls who fly for. We know that one of the prime entertainments and angle of the hundred years ago was a public hanging. Till Charles Dickens a number of the reformers of that period abolished public executions and they began to hang people behind the walls penitentiary. We know that in this country. Even today in some communities people clamoring to get into the death. Get into the lever of the gallows. But I'd like to see these language by and large we don't let them get like a view of these aspects of them but they were a great source of news people took the family and promised the children that they were going to take them to the hanging the next bed and. You know that meeting yesterday now. We have stopped all that sort of thing for the most part. We don't have this these public evidence of brutality. Turning people off the gallus arrest. Has has that had any effect. Good or bad. Except as a question of taste and general public policy. I must confess that. And the absence of. Any adequate study for that kind of frustrating answer I would be unable to answer in a definitive way. However I think one must differentiate between certain isolated anomalies and some which if you like. Are facilitated because they fall in with a whole series of other happening what you all go in the AS same direction and I think. Perhaps And part of. The comic book there are a matter of concern because there are other kinds of things which. Kind of hit kids in the in the same way that the so they become especially in Africa I would think I don't have any opinion doctor but to me it seemed to be in the very interesting field for speculation we have cut out so many of the out of the evidence is the ALFREDSON emblems. Of. All evidences of brutality. The Pellerin the stocks of. The docking it's true the public executions and still we don't seem to. Combine learned. Very much about ameliorating violence in the character of new. Yet we must say from our study of very young children who are not ill. We don't find any evidence of any what might my quality. Herron destructive empire and youngsters as the. And given the opportunity to grow and. Normal aggression as distinguished from destructiveness hostility. I think we'd almost forced to conclude that it's something in the eye to a sense with which we provide children that account for it in good part. Not really it's under through thank God But I wonder if this wouldn't have something to do with the protect. We didn't condone public hangings and generally they. Are not legal now. But even the paintings the. Comparison of people who would see them but the number that would read funny five thousand or a crown books per month which would put out. The many many times those who might get to the place where the place. Of worship is much wider dissemination. See. Certainly well over a hundred thousand years now probably old tavern hell in London the Old Bailey. Far as I could see. It would not be taxing than children lunch baskets in the pick pocket working a crowd. Of other hanging but not here do you find. A more serious crime is growing among the young crowd. That we experience here in the euro we have noted in our observation. That. The court itself does report more terrorist type of delinquency. And in rough kinds of studies we think that it probably does heart bond with an increasing amount of psych at the civil servants in the past as we sit in. And that is on the increase at st of it and I conducted counseling for aggression stock purchases promoting wish Thank you very much for your friends here this morning in light of your contributions in a private school care. That was talk of how respect director of the Bureau of mental health services the New York City domestic relations courts as number one why is he continues to bring up this Senate subcommittee hearing on given among one thing in particular its effect on the effect of comic books you want to say and I only have our next witness. Now please don't Mr Phillips Mr Show us where you speak for the record your name address occupation the surgery for Henry at the shops. I'm tourney counsel for the Association of comic magazine publishers I met two o five Eastern for the second straight here in the city of New York. Would you tell us a little bit about the association past the first membership how it got started one of the purposes of. Well I must be a little vague about the precise date because I had no contact with at the time but my recollection is that it was about seven years got six or seven years ago. That and the comic book publishers almost ninety percent off them gather together and play stuff with lightning storms of criticism. And start to band together to do something about it. They are going to hide themselves into a way. I put because all good thought of the trade association of one kind or another. And under the leadership of a committee formulated a code. Again I had no hand in that formulation that was headed as I recall it by George attacked one of the finer better publishers in the in the space will publish Parents magazine and I think as we look back there was a sincere effort to bring some beginnings of order out of chaos. Unfortunately. Early in the operation of bad associations some of the larger public has. Left and. When I was approached but when they first started I'm sorry Michel but when first started was breaking forty eight is that it took seven years ago I suspect it's probably had a four stop we're only publishes members do they all go in I think almost without exception I may have been one of the two people who didn't attend those meetings but as I understand it and this is hearsay. Ninety percent of the industry were members of that original arguments action that was formed and then you the Association adopted the code it was after the adoption of the code that some members left about it that is true but I hasten to add if there's any amp front no evidence that they left because of the called that would be unfair to the people who left some of them are the finest publishers of comics in the industry some of the largest ones they left for a variety of reasons and that's that's been expressed to me which if I may just elaborate a little some of them felt. That they should not be associated with some of the elements in the industry that they felt were publishing products in Syria that. And there is also a way in passing a great deal of. It and that's a warfare and that then display a lot of old hatreds and difficulties which also meditated to get a strong wound that attempt are going to. You know I have you a copy of the code with no I'm sorry I thought the committee when we have one are going to start right off this with Jim We received. Mark corrected incorporated in the record with the American. You know what is this is the code that is the code what is your present members are these surgeries and now. We have about a dozen members only. Three of which are publishers. Several distributors some of the president Gregory. I say that our experience and continue in this argues action has been a study in frustration. When I came to the picture started six years ago we had about one third of the answer to that time there have been defections from that very substantially solve it today. Unfortunately our association represents a very insignificant small fraction of the industry those few die hards who still believe but some by some merit Goliaths are going to sation of their original promise which was a program of self-regulation of comics might yet come through. Actually I was on the fractions with those because of the code you have any big whoever because they were not abiding by the code there were several resignations which would directly tied to both of the fact that I as the pricing of some responsibility and less refused to approach. Start magazines and. These people felt I put live on the what they regarded as excessive kind of narrow respect. You were forcing the code in other words and I tried to. Force and force it on a very practical level how many men your heart publishers were involved in. The defection fraction of a kind of outcry. No Abdulla the publishers who left for that very specific reason others laugh without. Giving raise and say and I can only guess what the motivations might have been which were the two that had different respect codes well. One was the. I think it was called educational comics it's now at the payment again publishing the other was. Something called the Avon A.B.L. ran there again with they deliberated of corporations and names. Those names cover a variety of companies I presume are. There how do you operate our social ration operate now contrast or maybe would you screen all the the magazines the comics the various bill of approval you have I have to read original A When I was a product as a concept was to set up a kind of part of the motion picture production code. We had some. What I still think were good ideas we got together a committee of educators we had a certain time of the schools earlier we had the state library and some others as an advisory committee just sat with in seven hours with publishers and editors to write the language content and levels and so on and we actually had a procedure some people we hired were actually reading the comics and the board that's the raw state of the pasted up kind of thing before it gets to the product. When some I guess it's more than three years are perhaps even the last when the defections came so bad we put in the part to continue that kind of free That's a ship right and that's been discarded and today. We do know self regulation and tall except as it makes that's going on behind the editors as they proceed in that in other words the strokes the common books very lives are comic books which they better seal of approval of the association do not necessarily mean that anybody live so she ation has read them and actually approve because they do not the Association adopted some yourself or your skull if you like members adopted a provision in which they believe that they would do no wrong censorship at that point and there is no longer that other process which I prescribe or you have say they still do ban the seal of that of a Baptist say on our the concept being that they conform and that's just like an song that I called which has been made part of the Right now. In the enforcement of your code or your regulations whatever it is Have you any sanctions whatsoever no we have no sanctions but what the publisher who does not live up to your code just goes ahead is there any provision in a publisher who was a member of the association or desire to have a seal on his publication. If you get. From one to the recommendations by what they did five like you say no but I mean right now the person is a member of the publisher is a member of the association and puts out a magazine that may have a sale there is no way is there in which your organization is a funky organization takes actually do not checking what I check in with what I'm what I'm. Not what you hear this morning was killed yes I was right on the assumption you see some of the exhibits if I did would you say that the ones which showed the kind of heart and era. Would conform to your articles on crimes in the code and on sadistic torture which are forbidding under the code while it's pretty hard to generalize or thought I would cite that when the card was adopted. The we're kind of Terra comics had not been an existence and the committee that. The committee that organized the call it made no provision a reference to it whatever of that it's hard to ask the question technically at the level of inform the call my difficulties. However go beyond the technical I start it's like they violate the spirit and have such called and was one of the reasons for the defections of which I spoke and it would would it in your opinion but I like that provision of your code which says that the object of the code is to prohibit anything which in any way what was the moral standards of those who read them wouldn't you say that some of these who said I would value getting into an area in which I have very limited competence I've got a lot of. Experience and contacts. In the last six years with a whole body of the man in the various disciplines who have studied the problem and I'm as can stills as I presume most everybody else is about how to answer that question I guess is that. You will not Jap. Any eminent sound responsible psychiatrists chill bank I defended the statement on that subject when I was I was testing testing the defense against the code itself which in turn on something like honestly my question and I make a suggestion. This reads to me like a very active code has been given a great deal of thought and. If they publishers would follow this code I don't think we'd have this problem that we're talking about here today I know the code been made a part of the record this record but I would think the. So they noticed what we were talking about the paragraph having to do with what they recommend publishing and not be published or to be read. Very glad to have the council read that for the. I had to want to on commanding the association on that. I would do the track of time I think when I got a part time so it's very hard to spread the whole thing and there seems to be a September nineteenth part again some day next that's the date received this new capsule you read this is something inside of the Comics Code the association of comics magazine publishers realizing its responsibility to the millions of readers of comics magazines and to the public generally urges its members and others to publish comic books magazines containing only good wholesome entertainment or education and in no event including any magazine comics that may in any way lower the Marvel standards of those who read them in particular one sexy want in comics should not be published no during should show a female indecently underexposed and in no event one knew that in a bathing suit commonly worn in the United States of America two crimes should not be presented in such a way as to throw sympathy against Lauren justice or to inspire others with a desire for imitation no comics shall show the details and methods of a crime committed by a. Policeman judges government officials and respected institutions should not be portrayed as stupid ineffective are represented in any way as to weaken respect first that was the party great no scenes of sadistic torture should be shown for a while those and obscene language should never be used slang should be kept to a minimum and it was only when essential to the story five divorce should not be created humorously your represented as glamorous are warring sex. Ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never progressive that is the end of the culture stuff on the plane. All right. Mr Short Just one more question and you have had some years of experience in the representing publishers comic books publishers. In the sale and distribution of comic books. On the dealers at the local level required by either the wholesaler the distributor on the publisher in any way wired to carry the primary hard comic books well I would say that the best That's right that gap starts with probably basis that all magazines comic books and all publications of every kind then variety are sold on a fully return of a basis so that you start with the concept that a dealer who fails the urge not sell and I was dealing with a man at the street corner three got retail that's if the retailer desires to avoid selling any magazine which I therefore political let's just such an armada written by a band here that's about a days on at those put under the company at the end of the month return it for full credit he doesn't have to pay for I would not say that there are instances where a road man representing the wholesaler or the distributor in New York and then effort to perform his function may not urge him to. Display a comic book that he might not want to but. There is no compulsion legally. In any of the right spots that I'm aware of in the publishing industry have you heard of compulsion in the form of either a publisher holds a wholesaler or a distributor saying to a dealer or dealers that unless they carry a crime in our comics that they will not be given other say more saleable. Magazines While I've never heard that but I can imagine it happening for different reasons. It's very much a most bizarre like the bottom up of failed business where they have an agency and they wouldn't like the agent to prefer to sell only the convertible they want him to have a full line if a national distributor like the American those company that publishes a rival distributes one hundred magazines they provide for a whole staff of the character for French on all of their publications I presume at the point was reached where I wholesaler by refusing to accept publications are returning or returning them without sales up to the point where his franchise was ineffective and he wasn't. Doing a decent job for the individual distributor he might revoke the franchise and give it to somebody else the other way view there is a possibility then that if a particular dealer is a drugstore dealer. Does not want to carry some of the crime and hard comics and keep returning certain issues that he may be refused the sale of other magazines by the wholesale and I can't conceive it happening at that level of the rates have I think that would be very remote it would it is likely to happen then at the distributed wholesaler and it could happen at the discovery the wholesale level but I've never heard of a downer. So for the purposes of her own level of becomes necessary I'm asked not to my colleague in the legal who don't have her think. I know the stature of the dozens and. I. Think they perhaps proceeded on the. Notion which is different from mine and that is that there is some compulsion in the so called hindsight my own experience with the dentist who represented publishers for part of the Such rate would say that in the case of the copy I thought that since that was passed I think and I don't hold up one of the New York discussing past no something's got to be one of the jersey of what I asked as a result of a great deal of excitement and hysteria in my judgment about this whole problem of the impact of the mass media deal and I thought I think that proceed from I don't wrong assumption left. The pie and stay out as a part of the legal mechanism of the distribution but that's one of the five It does not. You don't agree very much because of the stuff that said abide by the currently promises five five of code which is just read in the record. Which probably we saw I'm sure that ninety percent of the trouble would have been removed. At least all the time what is the bank use would be a lemonade wouldn't it. Yes accept for the dangers a compromise if I might just expand on that by the amount I would like to feel that I can buy it just to tell the story of prostration about this does yes and without at least being given the privilege of saying one word about my own beliefs on the impact of these comments. On the prop. I have the feeling from all I've seen and read that I've had a great deal of contact with them that. There are people who work for motivations out there wrong some bison state some I thank God for instance that have made up their comic book which is. A. National scandal I think it's been a a disservice to the people I think it's been a disservice to the whole problem that this committee is trying so hard to grapple with the problem of really trying to find the basic steps of the courts for juvenile delinquents are so complex I thought brought. That to do the thing that has happened so many times which is to point to the easiest culprit and say at the comic book that the responsible for all our difficulties. Is a very dangerous but did it and I'm not talking not in the comic book publishing that. I think it detracts from the ability to understand the real basic causes of juvenile like and I think that impedes intelligent investigations into those causes it gratifies the Billings of parents and others the pumping you think done about it when everybody blames the mass media comics of color but you know what the. I would say that from my talking with the man who have devoted you to a study of this process that they're. All agreed that the tools which they have in. The copy and sociology are still to block to through a name like careful measurements of the kind of. Answer which might be indicated by most of these are but. They they're only beginning to peel away and with this area you realize of course with the stamp that this committee is only prime sure that a true light on this whole problem well I would hope that by May make one play in close that this committee. And in face of the larger scope of the problem that the serious important difficult for us. Could do like I started my job if we had what while excoriating they. A bad taste of the balls are they and they are sometimes bordering on up Saturday that occurs in Lee's publication I think many of the comic book publishers have failed in that building to. Mothers and to take this great medium which was seventy years ago way wonderful a vital claim and they debased that many was I think they should be criticized for that but I think the whole problem of comics often their impact must be put in proper form how much of an impact all of the mass media can make on this problem and what little corner of. The comic book occupies is a public difficult measurement so much you start with. The look at Harvard who are devoted gears to those folks tell us in that the fun of the book that just came out the. Child's pattern of the legacy of sex but the age of six that even before he's exposed to them I didn't. Know that they had been before this committee and I didn't know they had but you get the. An opportunity I think here too in a report of a. To point out that if there is any impact it's likely a very small part of the cult and I am hopeful that. We can lay the Gulf once and for all of the continual excitement the frightening impact on power and send people all over the carpet by a few people will pop up fighting people out of their webs by telling them that all the youngsters in the nation are being turned into the little monsters by the comic book at the I think it's just a lot of luck. I. Committed I don't get one hundred I think bribery like question. Is one of that may I have that code with. I had one assumes. I think most of us will agree with you that there are dozens and dozens of. Factors are contributing factors up in this problem. And that too. In the committee has been going into various and sundry one of them I think you would agree that it's proper that we need to also better look at this. And crime comic book problem. Misc shows how many do you have left and they are in the association Yeah but Bob doesn't happen by side with only three of pop. But only three are publishers Well I'm this. This code here. Have a premium service incorporated for the public because it is still a member I don't recognize that name it's not a member I don't even know who they are famous funny isn't cooperate Amos Bonnie's which was the publisher of the point probably that ever they're still not Goldman periodicals incorporated they are not. The parents Institute incorporate they want out of comic book but sometimes. Love lives and publication has until now for. Form publications and went out a bit both of them will oppressed. They are enough. That they leave the. I don't remember not started or whether they didn't mind go whether they'd laugh about your articles they want in the. Face magazines they laughed. Arbet publications like. They left if they did. This incredible amount of. I don't remember the details of each of these companies each one with an edge to them and. A busy career around that problem and they brought back all kinds of numbers by the latest five in their Perrier comics and. The period comics. I believe gave up that although I really don't know consolidated magazines they are no longer mapped. Then I don't think Apple of them is group. At those was a more recently formed company said the format that the formulation of that call and Atlas became a member about two years but other than that I'm still a member in the. Middle showed. Actually. This is so cherish and how many employees do you have. The best. Ideas on that output us instead of employees we have a map of the actors got a secretary and I'm General Counsel What is the budget of it's OK We spend about fifteen thousand dollars a year. And how many members do you have left and. Pop up so that. Two part time employees or U.S. general counsel and one employee you make no effort really to look over. See what they're publishing and you have no sanctions so. Actually you would admit the association just about their going out of business yes we are now merely i Reporting Agency we get up that little lot of that comes out of lots and lots of which we collect all that stuff they can all over the nation put aside the comics and pass it on to be have a space with Khalid occasional industry meetings to talk about such a ship and some of their problems taxes and things of that kind but for all intents and purposes. We are out of business on our major objective which was stop writing about. And as the. Regulator of the lenders for the comic book industry if you had been permitted to be certain with the Met a lot of things you'd seen here this morning through I had not only the law but I did that and. Unfortunately they left the subject. And the refusal to go along with your ideas about it is the reason it. Has only a few members left well late as it is that's not entirely true the reason it hasn't succeeded I think is the failure of the feel is a lot of some of the larger and better published before while they themselves do not publish comic books which might be in this category. I did not recognize their responsibilities to the total industry by staying with the item is I sure that if it's option and formulating practices that rules which would have become a Bible to get. Mr Show. Never saying that in the beginning. The publishers had. Pretty good judgment because this started back in one thousand nine hundred seven just about the time that our own Prime comics got in the way mostly. I don't believe the higher comics came in seven people were still. Bought three four years got my guess. I don't think the current comics were tall in the picture nobody knew anything about them when this cult was formulated some seven years ago. For that whole comics were in excess of that time the code would seem to have had reference to our comics at that time and scenes of sadistic departure should not be shown. And. Boger an obscene language should not be used. But any event permits shown to. Would seem to be unfortunate that. This effort to start off so good does not. Like center around and I can just challenge you have a seal of approval have you know we did have. The. Land for. A rich play the concept was that for sale would only be permitted on publications which had gone through that stuff like that our process. Got to the point where we went out of business on that concept and now the sale means I presume means that the person who uses it is a member of the association and is put in forming it it's got to the polls it was adopted in other words he would regulate himself stuck. In the sense here is a momentary lapse but this economic That's about. As the panic our counselors suggest that there is a seal exhibit at the start yet one of them. I think it does perform for the comic book called. What publications that I had to start that. I missed out on one of the what I have. Found that and I thought you said that was not a member I said after the cabinet member about for that's right thank you that's so there's that seal. Protected by owning copyright you know and I have filed on occasion it's been years in property and we've had stuff. That you have that you have excuse me I had to have I I'm wondering like how you did stop them just by writing a letter and. Like you have no way of controlling the use of that studio really except I would put zone perhaps you that get on and on about him sort of those that unction I think we might get mine but. I'd be quite a process to be unlikely to go through that you're presently operating. Well I would like that if somebody goes that Leo is not a man and proper lay that I could easily get authorization from the field Die Hard to let that to take the necessary action but you've never done so never had the mess to show so. I'm sure that we're. Glad that you made the statement that you did that there has been and various members of our met all of us have from time to time in the course of these hearings. Suggested our awareness of the fact that there is no one single factor. That was created but there's no to link them so it's kind of. We have consistently and I believe conscientiously. Tried to avoid giving the impression. Our seeming to have arrived upon the clues that would indicate that there is a panacea there is a cure Goldens perception if you do a comic book. We're not going to have any problem at all with young people getting in trouble. Stop certain kinds of television programs. Movies. Are. Even if you. Are out all of the substandard dwelling places you are if you have hundreds of psychiatrists where you have one and certain institutions that are certain agencies. Are that if you get everybody to go to the Y.M.C.A. or to join the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts you're not going to have any more trouble. I think that we all approached our problem here with. Certainly with that basic premise that we don't expect to find the one thing many things are accumulated many things are incalculable and an imponderable in this whole vast and complex subject and I think the more that we have seen of this during these past several months when we have been holding our hearings and study readings on the subject we. Are keenly conscious of the fact that. The ramifications of complex. Time seemingly almost insuperable but we're still trying and we didn't come here I have to prove sensationalism. By bringing people in the subject them to and it was a. Make it appear that. We necessarily believe that. This particular phase of activity is is or is not. Hurtful or a contributing factor we just don't know trying to trying to learn. Higher for one appreciate the spirit in which you come here today thank you Mr Softy here certainly appreciate the burden of your testimony you've been very helpful I think I think for every moment but he was right we're right I guess I'm asking one more thing coordinating the body very very. Those who care the seal of the membership are they call it whatever you may call it so they advertise inside of the magazine that they are complying with the code of the comics. The magazine Publishers Association I know of no such specific advice. Other than the impression of the sale itself on the Cup I mean how do people know what that feels means that well I really don't know most of the publishers ally nonmembers. Developed sales of all. Five whole series of stay over the place a good clean rating and everything else that the seal has lost it's a threat that it's bad when betting that a hard sell for somebody who takes trouble to look very closely at that little legend that might have some meaning to it. That I think it has nobody thank you very much. But he will stand in recess until two o'clock this afternoon. Ladies and gentlemen from the federal courthouse in downtown Manhattan Foley Square to be exact number two N.Y.C. has been bringing you a sense ten thirty this morning a proceeding on. The United States Senate subcommittee on juvenile delinquency investigating the effect of comic books. On the recent increase in juvenile delinquency. Members of this committee. Are. Senators Thomas E. Hemmings Democrat of Missouri Eskew father Democrat of Tennessee and working Langer Republican of North Dakota who was not at this morning's session and the chairman of the committee who presided Republican Senator Robert C. Hendrickson of New Jersey. In the course of this morning's proceeding we heard from free witnesses. The first one Mr Benton was the staff director of the subcommittee and who formally was with us children for seven years as chief of it. She also was a former probation officer in juvenile court. Mr. Proximately an hour and ten minutes of this morning session the second witness was Dr Harris director of the Bureau of mental health service of the New York City domestic relations courts which is made up of both a family court and the children's party and our third and final witness of this morning session Mr Henry Edwards the attorney for the Association of comic books magazine publishers an organization which has been in existence some six or seven years. We came on the air just a bit too late to get the opening remarks of Senator Hendrickson and briefly I like to summarize that point for you right here. You're from New Jersey pointed out that. This committee is not dealing with comics in newspapers it is confining its activities to comic magazines and that is all. He pointed out that over a billion comic books that's billion with a big B. on a billion comic books are sold here in the United States however this committee is dealing with only a fraction of those those concerned with. Crime and so forth and not as part of those that are harmless and so to Bob He also emphasized that this has nothing to do with. Freedom of press in this and that the freedom of the press issue is not a factor here. Also Senator hundreds of words once again. This is not a subcommittee of censors and that the committee has no preconceived idea of a watch should be done. In the remainder of his opening remarks. And stressed the rise of crime. Of late here on this country and that the committee is thinking about ways and means of checking. The rise of the like ones. They've received numerous letters from people across the country you might point out at this stage that the committee has held hearings in other cities of this country in addition to the current one here in New York senator keep Oliver complimented the chairman for his the mission and also brought up the fact that this being a federal committee in the sense that it is a committee of Congress is interested in the effect of comic books. And a possible violation of such as the direct the Mann Act. Violation of interstate commerce and in particular the postal statutes. Senator the father also noted that the surgery Edgar Hoover reports that although the population of this country has gone up five percent the crime rate has increased some twenty percent and that juveniles are responsible for fifty three point six percent of all the automobile theft that occurred in this country last year. Mr Clinton who as we said is the staff director of this. Investigating Committee. Brought with him a number of slides and he is well especially as we show him to the reporters and cameraman here in this courtroom and I might say we have had relatively few outside visitors most of the people in the courtroom this morning were either members of the committee staff reporters cameraman doctors or various types after showing these slides and these are all astray sions Mr Clinton. Went into great detail on the results of his findings including submitting for the record letters from various people involved with the subject of juvenile delinquency one letter from Dr Robert Felix the director of the National Institute of Mental Health a compilation by the Library of Congress and even a report by The New York State joint legislative committee to study comics in this respect I might call your attention to an editorial appearing in this morning's New York Times called policing obscene comics and reporting from that editorial right now the New York Times says We believe people without the need for stronger policing of the magazine stand against obscenity after reading the March one thousand nine hundred eighty four report of the New York State joint legislative committee to study the publication of comics the US patients and quotations reprinted in that document were enough to convince us that publications including comic con the word comic is unfolds comic books were being freely sold on the streets that have no business in the hands of young people that's a quote from this morning's New York Times. Mr Jennings or rather senator that should say Missouri brought out the fact that in all of this proceeding the profit motive seems to be the main concern of the comic industry and not necessarily the material used in comic books. And of course Dr pack as we said before is the director of the Bureau of mental health services in New York City domestic relations court pointed out that comic books are not a primary causative source for juvenile delinquency but in areas of New York City where there are so-called detrimental influences comic books may have some effect on the rise in juvenile delinquency well that briefly is our session for this morning we might summarize to Mr Jones's remarks by saying with. He represents the Association for comic book magazine publishers and in summation he said that at the moment his agency is more or less a reporting agency to the members of the organization and comic industries throughout the country reporting on detrimental articles in magazines and newspapers and also occasionally calling industry meetings but in so far as unforced amount of the content of comic books is concerned is Agency is a defunct one either so we've been on the air since ten thirty this morning it is now Fox me two minutes before twelve thirty and once again this afternoon we will be on the air from this point here at the federal courthouse in lower Manhattan with the afternoon session beginning at approximately two o'clock this afternoon and we expect that because of the nature of these proceedings we have a great many parents listening to this broadcast we should like to have your reaction as well as that of the remainder of already audience to W N Y C S coverage of these hearings please address your comments to W N Y C New York seven in New York and so until two o'clock this afternoon to remind you that this program has been a feature presentation of the news and special events division of your city station and we return you now to our studios for the program amid a symphony already in progress on W. 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