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( Leo Garel / NYPR Archives )
Marty Wayne interviews two Professors at the College of the City of New York, Sociologist Charles Winick and Historian Sidney Ditzion, about the Marriage Museum, which tells the international story of courtship, marriage, love, and divorce.
Ditzion, who is also the Chairman of the Board of Trustees, describes the exhibition as the"total Kinsey approach...there isn't only one way of doing this thing that everyone does." Winick explains the importance of the collection and gives examples of courtship customs that may seem unusual to Americans. Ditzion describes an exhibit on Japanese municipal dating bureaus and hopes that this will lead to an exhibition on computerized dating.
They conclude the discussion on the changing roles of men and women in the home and their apparel. Winick and Ditzion list factors that lead to greater independence and equality for women such as automation of domestic chores and contraception. Both men argue that marriages have not become less stable because of these shifts in gender roles.
Audio courtesy of the NYC Municipal Archives WNYC Collection
WNYC archives id: 151800
Municipal archives id: T6099
This is a machine-generated transcript. Text is unformatted and may contain errors.
W. N.Y.C. welcomes you to another feature of its museum week a concentrated group of interviews discussions on special programs devoted to the many museums in New York City participating our curators staff directors on professional planners who offer first hand reports on the working of the museums and how they are meeting the challenge of change in the art world and now we open this museum week program we have in the studios today two gentlemen concerned with the great American institution of marriage Professor Charles what actually so Charlotte you Department of the College of the city of New York an author of a forthcoming book The new people a study of changing sex roles of the United States also the author of numerous articles on Sex and Marriage also professor said the decision of the history department of City College and chairman of the Board of Trustees of the marriage museum author of Marriage morals and sex in America Gentlemen welcome to our W N Y C studios we're going to be discussing a museum with which I gather you were both on the board of trustees of one of the one of this and that is yourself Professor did you know and the museum is the marriage Museum which is located on the west side of Broadway between sixty seventh and sixty eight streets here in the city of New York. Professor the marriage Museum is there that much concerning marriage and the customs connected with marriage that warrants exhibition in a museum What is the purpose of the museum really. The purpose of the museum is to provide a viewer with a kaleidoscopic view of customs of marriage love then courtship. Back to the gaining of record and before and also all over the world. It's a kind of a total Kinsey approach to experience through history and a tremendous variety of places. And as far as we're concerned we like the viewer of the museum to get the idea that there isn't only one way of doing this thing that everyone does you're talking about marriage of course I say. Professor whack your association with a museum as watcher as a student of the art or as one who has studied sect behavior and marriage in the United States can the Navy and other countries for many years. And what man are you associated with the museum. It deals with and presents subject matter with which I am actively concerned that is the various forms which marriage has taken in various parts of the world have you had a hand in preparing exhibits or preparing a material that accompanies exhibits no I haven't right but then you were studying some of the material in effect that you find in the museum yes and I have found that a number of the kinds of studies in which I'm interested courtship marriage divorce are and hands and. Very much helped by the kinds of materials which are in the museum which are photographs inscriptions Di RAM is and that is miniature exhibits. Actual. Things artifacts specimens of one kind or another. All rather attractive least at fourth in this museum for the serious student then of the institution of marriage you will find a wealth of material here not only wealth of material but a collection that is quite unique in the world it's extraordinary that prior to the opening of the Museum two years ago nowhere in the world was there a collection of this kind I would think that this is so highly specialized a narrow a subject that I museum can hardly find sufficient material to fill a museum and yet apparently we are now casting light on a subject which is somewhat murky to most people and that is the tremendous variety of custom and the history of courtship and marriage I guess we tend to think in terms of our own times in our own society but there are differences are there not or there are indeed differences and I think that all of the collection at the museum is a very exciting one and a. Very full one that it would be possible to have one hundred EDITION. All such collections dealing with the development of marriage and none of these other collection would duplicate what is in the marriage museum because the tremendous range of arrangements that people have made with one another under the name of marriage and the tremendous variation in courtship customs and the tremendous variation in how marriages are terminated by divorce and other techniques these these differ so radically that it would be possible to have as I said at least a hundred other museums without duplicating one single item in this collection was so shallow just fine and that they marriage customs are particular to a time in society and a reflection of that time in society do not you tell something of the times from the extra appearances of the marriage contract them are just attention of the time and place I think that if you begin for example with courtship with which marriage generally is likely to begin you'll find that the institutions that we take for granted such as the word spooning. Which you may wonder about the origin of a such and such concept can be easily understood when we learn for example from one of the interesting exhibits at the museum that the word spooning derives from a custom in some countries a boy giving a present to a girl off a spoon with. His name on it and with an appropriate inscription and if the girl accepts the spoon from him then they are ready to go steady now most people use the word spawning without knowing where it comes from and that's one example of a sort of new knowledge that a person might get let me mention just one or two others for example at the museum there are examples of the courting stick in New England when. A young man would seek to court a young woman and he was doing so in the living room of the girl's family he could communicate with her by talking through what is actually. A hollow stick which might be four or five feet long so that she could hold one end of it in her ear he would whisper to her and even though her parents might be sitting in between them on the sofa the couple would be able to communicate privately and that's an example of the sort of development which a few people know about just a spooning is an example of of the origin of something that we all are familiar with just in the area of courtship alone presidency and you have a comment on this point on this courtship stick I want to move it a little more up to date two and indicate that the museum has pictorial exhibits of Japanese dating bureaus which are run by municipalities. In which one filed his own qualifications and desires and gets three chances picking through the files for three possible dates which may become possible mates and of course letters add to this although we don't have an exhibit yet of computerized dating which is a Japanese employer computers in the system they have they have something that's a little earlier than the computer it's a quite system in which you can draw out certain qualifications by using a spindle. Or needle. The the women whole of the Hollerith system here there are a thousand items on one small card which is about four by six it's pre-computer but it's still relatively rapid but it doesn't volved manual use and mechanically you can select the kind of a characteristic you're looking for and yes I think the service that a computer performs to a boy and a girl. Is beyond its mechanics. The computer kind of day doesn't leave the young man with the responsibility of being turned down by a girl whom he calls or meet or ask for a date he merely Colter up and says I got you on the computer how about going out and he says no it doesn't really involve his ego terribly much he merely says that the the electronic tubes broke down and his own pride is saved by it on the other hand of course one feeds into the computer his own qualifications and those of us who are at all aware of human personality do not believe that people tell the truth about themselves at any time the kind of idealized or romanticized what they are and this is equally true of the Japanese system that it's entirely possible to put on Talk of characteristics other than the physical you really do not possess I think they're the data is taken down by a clerk and so there is one small possibility of arriving through a questionnaire process that true does the Japanese system act as a social introduction system as the computer card does here isn't easy you call up on the telephone in Japan and say I just got your card by putting on a bamboo shoots or something and I say the difference is that in Japan it is a service provided by the government and it is free in the United States although New York City. Via the park department did sponsor in Central Park last last year for one day a computerized dating service that undertook to match young folks in the park far as I know know what the city has followed New York's imaginative lead in this direction and the don't you think that the park departments involvement in this is somewhat I don't know what the correct word is here perhaps a little late are so little. I don't know it seems that Rather way out this is a rather unusual function we consider courting as a sport is so properly. This would come under part apartment it could indeed be considered a sport because some people caught for a life time with a variety of people as a form of exercise and Recreation course was the only form sport where you when the consequences are disastrous and binding as a as a loser when it of course is a reflection of the times and times of changing our attitudes toward marriage I guess reflect that so let's get back to the museum which absolutely fascinates me first of all I would imagine to be on the west side of Broadway between sixty seven to sixty eight so the storefront kind of the arrangement is it not it is and it is both attract and repel depending upon the personality who walks by you get people coming in who are seeking pornographic thrill we we get that sort of thing but we also have large classes from high schools and colleges brought down by their sociology teachers to actually get the solid kind of instruction we also had sailors walk in with the expectation of having a titillating time and they seem quite disappointed and spend very little time there whereas others who come in. Are there for two to two and a half hours and this is a comparatively small area. There's a tremendous amount of stuff that ticks off the anxieties of people. Provide them with humor as well. This museum does not exist and to titillate the few but as provides a source apparently of material for the serious scholar and one who studies the institutions of marriage seriously. How about the economics of the museum as a self-sustaining who operates the museum. At the moment it has three sources of income. There was a small foundation. Beginning with a very. Small indeed the museum asks one dollar admission people on there are lower rates for students and still rates the whole classes but one of the largest contributions to the museum is that given by the curator and his wife they give this service is free they have done the collecting and they also attend the collection and give small walking towards and which they describe various objects and explain them I say now you say they are examples of marriage practice ritual and ceremony else what kinds of things will we find other than the speaking to which oddly fascinates me and predates the telephone by some years what else will we find there what kind of artifacts there has been certain with marriage I might mention for example a diagram A and a copy of a painting by Van Eyck about the institution of the trial night which prevailed in a number of European countries for about two hundred years in this procedure a young man. Visits. Different girls night after night and spends the night with each one until he gets one of them pregnant then when he is assured of her ability to bear children he marries her and in the painting by Van Eyck there is a. Scene of a young man tiptoeing into a cottage and leaving his shoes outside the door and there's not a cottage shown in which from the window which another girl is looking presumably she is one whom he has already seen or she is one who would like to see him and that's an example of the sort of custom which. Does not generally prevail today although it is said that it still prevails in two areas of Holland. There are two. Exhibits which seem to attract everybody and hold them for a short time while they wonder as to how people could have behaved this way at any time which goes back to Puritan New England depicting the smock marriage a marriage in which a widow was who was being married for her second time appears at the ceremony in the nude and her groom holds a small core shimmies and as soon as the ceremony has been performed she puts the smock on and they greet their guests on the wedding party proceeds Now this as we know it is a symbolic representation the woman is appearing before her second husband and tiredly unencumbered by debt or anything else from the past that will interfere with the second marriage. Now I understand why this is a source of the will to men to humor the people but our visitors at the museum find this one of the more attractive things as another pictorial representation in which the relatives of the bride and groom. Not only attend the ceremony but attend the ceremony at the marriage bed. They remain at the bedside until the marriage is consummated Well I think this reveals a strong preoccupation with the childbearing functions of marriage. These things have proved to be very attractive to our. Visitors to meeting them doesn't yet have an exhibit devoted to the wedding and other contemporary developments in marriage but one might expect that in perhaps a year or two as we have more weddings for example the one at Columbia University during the student strike there may well be an example of this as an example of one way in which we have slightly modified the institution of marriage well now as a sociologist you will. I suppose will agree that times are changing in such our marriage customs reflect this change and strange things are happening to sexuality in this country and roles are being reversed between a man and woman could you tell us something about this changing role of the man and woman in marriage. Well now that. So large a proportion of married women work and now but with automation men spend less time on the job and now but they wear perfume and frilly shirts and velvet pans and Nehru jackets whereas the wife may wear a pantsuit or a straight line dress and many people have the experience of literally not being able to tell who was the male who was a female when they observe a couple walking down the street from the rear I would say that obviously things are changing very dramatically and they have been changing since about the end of World War two Perhaps it was the absence from home the fourteen million men during that period and the need for so many women to work that led to the beginning of the changes some of the end product of which we are seeing now is this the end result of true equality between men and women the loss of sexuality it's a striving toward equality rather than any truly quality which I wouldn't venture to mention but I was in the story and I'd like to push back a great deal further than Professor Winick has my reading and examination goes back to colonial times and I would place the beginnings of this time as this change at the point at which the data still. Was invented and then the typewriter typewriter really brought women into industry or into the commercial world and gave them the first beginnings of their independence also the the loom when it was introduced into the textile factories in Massachusetts gave women a new source of independence now I think if we had to summarize is that we would say that. The movement toward equality. Is a result of all kinds of change in economics and technology. And dependence of a woman is ultimately very much connected with her economic independence as soon as she begins to earn or show her economic value in the family she immediately begins to gain a bit of dignity we feel that out on the front here without technology the scarcity of women gain them a certain amount of the quality and they can stay in the family but once they can do non. Physical things and now they can do physical things as well to earn a living they begin doing this kind of equality also with the introduction of store clothing and canned goods and other things which liberate a woman from her older roles provide woman either with leisure or with time to earn or economic independence and I would say the greatest piece of technology that has moved to a given giving women independence is contraception technology. And earlier days rather technology and modern days pharmacological technology the release from childbearing. Provided one of the greatest. Impetus. To independence not examining this changing role of the woman she achieves equality or what she believes to be equality Konami a lack of dependence on the male What does this mean for specifically American marriages are they less stable now was dependence an important part of a stable marriage as reflected in figures today because we seem to have such a tremendous proponents of marriages going on the rocks and very early to. I think that the frequently quoted statistic that one out of three marriages ends in divorce is somewhat misleading because actually the divorce rate has remained fairly constant Ilam a sense about eighteen eighty or thereabouts and it has actually been going down every year since the end of World War two with the exception of one year I think therefore that trying to prove what is happening to marriage one way or the other by pointing to the divorce rate is very difficult what we can say however is that. Obviously if people are not sure about what is expected of them then they're likely to be more troubled and anxious about their role and they're likely to be more aware if things are not going well in the past a woman had a clear role in the kitchen raising children and so forth she could see other women who had been doing that she knew she would be doing that and she knew that her daughter would be doing a similar kind of thing but when the roles are so uncertain then what is expected of a person is uncertain and therefore one is more likely to be confused and therefore there is more opportunity for anxiety and uncertainty and tension that is developing a bear in mind that the United States is the first country in the world in which over half the job on now service occupations in contrast to agricultural or manufacturing occupations and a service work that women have traditionally done so well so that we may soon have a situation in which men are actually competing for jobs that were formerly women's rather than women competing for jobs that were formally men's and we already have a situation today in which over two and a half million women earn more money than their husbands so that obviously the frail comparatively frail institution of marriage is we have no. It is now subject to a tremendous variety of new stresses and strains that people must learn to live with and one way in which they can learn to live with them is to be aware that these things are happening and by getting some sort of perspective on other arrangements after all there are societies in which thousands of years ago men stayed at home and women worked in the fields and these were stable societies also so let me only because the institution of marriage is subject to change and stress and strain today doesn't mean in any way that it's going to collapse this is the marriage museum look at it on the west side of Broadway between sixty seven and sixty eight streets today we've been talking to professors and he did say in the history department of the College of the city of New York and chairman of the Board of Trustees of the museum and also the author of Marriage morals and sex in America and also we've got in the studio today Professor Charles wenneker of the a sociology department of the College of the city of New York author of the forthcoming book The new people a study of changing sex roles in the United States and also Professor when it has been the author of numerous articles on sex and marriage you have been listening to another museum week program one in a group of special broadcast bringing you first hand reports of the many museums in New York City your comments will be read with interest please address your cards on letters to museum week W N Y C New York one hundred also be with us through Saturday July sixth floor the many informative programs in this special series.