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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming us, or listening on demand, I'm grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll talk about barbecue with Ryan Mitchell who has a new cookbook out with his dad, legendary pitmaster Ed Mitchell. We'll also talk about a recent Radiolab episode about tracing your family history, and we'll learn about the cultural history of the Star-Spangled Banner. That's the plan, so let's get this started with how to make your lawn more sustainable.

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Oh, if you listened to the show last Friday, a week ago, you heard a conversation about sustainable landscaping and we had so many people calling in and so many topics we didn't get to that we wanted to give a little more time to this topic. We know many of you are environmentally conscious and curious about the ways you can help the environment on a global scale and more close to home. Here are some things we learned in last week's discussion. A 2016 study of NASA images found that the United States has around 40 million acres of lawn making it our largest irrigated crop.

We also talked about how promoting native plants can help bees and butterflies and hummingbirds thrive at a time when pollinators are facing ecologically troubling conditions. Plus, we heard how certain native plants can help improve drainage and prevent flooding, but as I mentioned, there's a lot more to talk about. Listeners, we want to bring you into the conversation as well. Have you tried to make your lawn environmentally friendly? Have you gone out of your way to attract pollinators like bees or butterflies?

Or maybe you have questions about how you can manage your home's outdoor space to reduce flooding or to improve biodiversity or cut out of chemicals like pesticides, our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can also text to that number, that's really handy, or you can message us on our socials, that's @AllOfItWNYC. Joining me now to take those calls, please welcome a pair of Rutgers professors and county agents of the school's Cooperative Extension Program which aims to make the university's environmental insights available to anyone in the area. Please welcome back, Michele Bakacs. Hi, Michele Bakacs.

Michele Bakacs: Hi. Thanks for having us back.

Alison Stewart: We're so happy you could come back.

Michele Bakacs: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Amy Rowe. Amy, thank you for making time again.

Amy Rowe: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Let's get to some issues that we had from last week, some calls that came in that we weren't able to get on the air. You recommended planting goldenrod and that upset one of our listeners who commented on our webpage. "I cannot believe," capitals, "that your guests are advising people to plant goldenrod. It's a source of allergies. Allergies that for decades had me absolutely bedridden." First of all, to our listener, I'm so sorry that you have these allergies that cause you so many problems and make your life difficult, but Michele, you emailed us and you said that that information isn't correct. Will you clear this up for us?

Michele Bakacs: Sure. This is, man, goldenrod gets a bad rap, doesn't it? I'm excited to be able to clarify this misconception. What goes to the heart of this is the way pollen spreads. Goldenrod is a great native plant. It's incredibly important to have in the fall, as you said, to support local pollinators, but it is in the same family, it's in this Asteraceae family, and it's in the same family as ragweed. It's actually ragweed that is causing most people's allergies. Now, the difference between those two is, again, the way their pollen is spread and, one, goldenrod, the pollen is spread by animals, but ragweed, the pollen is spread by wind.

That's where most of our seasonal allergies come from. They come from wind-pollinated plants. Since goldenrod, it's animal-pollinated, so it's got to put its resources into making a big, beautiful flower to attract pollinators to it. Ragweed doesn't have to do that, it just needs the winds, and unfortunately, at the same time, it causes people to have allergies.

Now the thing is ragweed, it doesn't need to put resources into a flower. It has a very inconspicuous flower and most people don't notice it, but man, they sure do notice that goldenrod because it's so beautiful.

There are lots of native goldenrods that people can plant. There's zigzag goldenrod, there's showy golden rod, there's also Canada goldenrod, which is a little bit aggressive, but don't cut down your goldenrod in the fall, it's really important.

Alison Stewart: In the name of ecological sustainability, are there any other misconceptions, Michele, you'd like to tackle at this moment?

Michele Bakacs: Oh, man, there are so many. I don't know off the top of my head, but that would be a big one, the way we have allergies. Oh, actually, I did just think of one, the term weed. We were talking about this recently. This is a big thing that we get questions about. A lot of our native plants have weed in the name: milkweed, ironweed, sneezeweed, Joe-Pye-weed. Because traditionally, people did not want them in their landscapes. They grew naturally, they grew in the wild, but people wanted a more cultivated landscape, so they called these plants weeds.

People sometimes hear those terms and they think, "Oh, we don't want these weeds in the landscape," but these are actually some of our most important native plants that people should be planting. Don't get discouraged if you see the term weed in a native plant name. That would be another misconception.

Alison Stewart: Okay. Let's take Alicia. Alicia, thanks for calling in.

Alicia: Yes. Hi. Thank you very much for taking my call. I've been trying to let my lawn, I don't put grassy down or fertilizer or [unintelligible 00:06:28] or anything down and I think my neighbor's getting a little upset with me. Is there any kind of ground cover that you can put down in lieu of grass that looks nice and neat and won't grow so high that won't be offensive to your neighbors?

Michele Bakacs: You are in luck. What I would do is the Mt. Cuba Center, which is in Delaware, is a native botanical gardens, and they just came out with their research trials. The last one that they looked at were sedges. They tested all these different sedges to determine which ones would do well in our local landscapes. One of the things that they did is they mowed them to see which ones would survive, so sedges are great. They're native plants, they look very beautiful. They're not aggressive and there's a couple that do well in the shade, there's a couple that do well in the sun. Some of them even do well in wet areas, so that would be something to look at.

Alison Stewart: Good luck, Alicia. Amy, I want to bring you in on this conversation. Allergies and pollen are related, so do you have any advice for pollinator-friendly lawn care that won't cause someone to have allergies? If that makes sense.

Amy Rowe: Oh, well, certainly if you want to avoid pollen, then going with your native grasses would definitely reduce pollen compared to flowers, compared to all those wind-driven ragweeds and things like that, but there are plenty of grasses and shrubs that you can keep so that they're not creating pollen so much. I don't know if Michele wants to jump in here also, but there are all kinds of things that are not really creating pollen but are still native to our areas. Those sedges, those, let's see, what else? Some other shrubs.

Michele Bakacs: I think the key is if you are allergy sensitive, doing the research to determine which plants are wind-pollinated and which are more animal-pollinated. Some important ones for pollinators are asters. Those are purple asters. Those are great also in the fall, so those are not really wind-pollinated, they're more animal-pollinated. There's also another great plant that we love here in our nursery, penstemon. It's the beardtongue family, and that's a really fun plant to have in your garden. It's just finishing up. These are more herbaceous species.

Then as Amy said, shrubs are also really important, and don't forget about those trees because those are critical for, not only supporting pollinators but also supporting caterpillars that form the basis of our food web. Unfortunately, the oaks, which are kind of the Mac Daddy of the biodiversity world, they are wind-pollinated. They would have some allergy issues.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Craig from Morganville, New Jersey. Hi Craig. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Craig: Hey, how you doing? I love this topic. I've planted butterfly bushes in my yard in New Jersey and it does attract butterflies for real. They come out of nowhere, it's amazing, but I've planted these perennial bushes that attract bumblebees and I can't get the name right. I've even taken the picture of them to show shrubbery places. They're long plants with these blue little flowers on top like rods. Are they called salvia or astilbe? I don't know what they are. For me to find them, it shouldn't be hard, but it is.

Alison Stewart: A mystery.

Michele Bakacs: Amy, do you want to talk about the Master Gardener program, the helpline?

Alison Stewart: Sure, that's a great idea. This is a perfect segue.

Amy Rowe: Yes. I'm not sure exactly which county this caller is in New Jersey, but we have a Master Gardener program that offers a public helpline for gardeners that are having questions about identifying plants and figuring out where to find them. You can call your local county and they will be able to take a look at a picture, or if you could bring in a cutting, that would be even better. Our extension offices are across the whole state. We're in every county and the Master Gardener helpline would love to help you figure out that plant.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to figure that out just you describing it. Although I love that you have lots of bumblebees. Please support the bumblebees. Yes, Rutgers helpline would be happy to help you figure out what that plant is.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Michele Bakacs and Amy Rowe, associate professors at Rutgers. They're county agents for the school's Cooperative Extension program. We are talking about sustainable landscaping. We're getting a lot of questions about invasive species like Japanese knotwood. Michele, could you give us a couple of examples of what an invasive species is and where they factor into this conversation? Good guys, bad guys?

Michele Bakacs: Sure. This is a really timely topic, especially in New Jersey because we have some invasive species legislation that's going through. I think it just went through the assembly and that would potentially ban certain invasive horticultural plants. Lots of states around us have already done that. Some of the ones that are a problem. Let's step back for a second, what does that mean to be invasive? We did a native plant swap recently in one of my counties. A lot of folks were bringing plants that they said in their yard were aggressive and that's different. Invasive species, actually, there's a federal definition of invasive species.

The federal definition is it needs to be non-native to the area and likely to also cause some sort of harm, so economic or environmental or harm to human health. That doesn't necessarily mean that the plant that's taking over your garden is necessarily invasive. Some examples of invasive species in our area are barberry, Japanese barberry. That's a very popular ornamental bush. Also burning bush is another one. Those are two examples. What happens is those plants, they may look nice in your landscape, but their seed is spread into local natural areas like forest, under stories, and they move in, grow very quickly, don't have any natural predators or diseases that help keep them in check.

Most importantly, the deer don't eat them. They prefer the native plants. That gives them a competitive edge over our native plants and they just become a monoculture pushing out those native plants that are so important for wildlife. I would encourage you to take a look at your landscapes and see if you have any of these invasive plants and consider replacing them with natives.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Deb from Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Deb, thanks for calling All Of It.

Deb: Hey, there. Let's see, this spring, I ripped out my front lawn. I have a small 1920s-type house with a front and a back lawn and ripped it out, put in a Dutch clover in the front and a mini clover-type hybrid in the back. It looks fabulous. It's very soft.

Michele Bakacs: That's great.

Deb: I'm also a beekeeper.

Michele Bakacs: That's so cool.

Deb: I have a few hives and the bees love clover. You just can't walk through it barefoot when the bees are buzzing around. Aside from that, it looks great. A lot of mint. The bees adore the mint. In fact, the honey starts tasting like mint because they're all over it. That's about it. I'm happy, I'm so thrilled. I'm going to get rid of my lawnmower. That was my objective.

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Alison Stewart: Deb, thanks for calling. Amy, I saw you nodding vigorously.

Amy Rowe: Yes, I would like to commend Deb for basically everything that she said. She ripped out her lawn, she replaced it with clover, she is a beekeeper. She's got her whole ecosystem working together to keep the pollinators going, to have the clover providing nitrogen to the soil that's under all of that clover. She's absolutely right that you can't walk barefoot when the bees are buzzing around, but it seems worth it to keep the ecosystem happy and to have everybody with a more natural non-monoculture turf grass. Clover is great to reduce mowing, to have that, that nitrogen content being increased in the soil and, like we said, to keep the pollinators happy. Great job, Deb.

Alison Stewart: If you want to be like Deb, keep listening. We're going to talk about some of the logistics and practicalities for people who want to make sure their lawns are environmentally sustainable. We'll be talking soil after the break and taking more of your calls. Listeners, we're talking about sustainable landscaping. Have you tried to make your lawn environmentally friendly? Have you gone out of your way to attract pollinators like bees or butterflies or maybe you have a question for one of our guests, Michele Bakacs and Amy Rowe, from Rutgers. Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call us or text to us at that number. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Oh, boy, our phone lines are full here at All Of It on WNYC because we are talking about sustainable landscaping with Michele Bakacs and Amy Rowe of Rutgers. We talked about it last week. We had so many calls and so many comments. We invited them back again. Let's talk to Nathan calling in from New Rochelle. Hi, Nathan.

Nathan: Hi. My name's Nathan. I'm in New Rochelle, but I work in Westport, Connecticut. I'm actually the town wetland cop, conservation compliance officer. Something I've been wanting to do a long time and finally got to do is I got a space at the community garden and I've been growing hundreds of native plants specifically to give away. I was very clear I'm not trying to sell them because I have hundreds of conversations every month. A lot of the homeowners are really interested in being environmental, but they need that push. I have the know-how, I have the expertise. I'm very familiar with invasives and natives and they don't.

I contacted six people and each one of them I'm giving about 20 native plants so they can have a real start. Because one or two plants, and I'm not a hater, if any listeners can only have space for one, go for it, but these people have big lawns, so I'm giving them 20 to give them a real start and then saying, "Hey, contact your friends. I got more." So far everybody I've contacted has been excited about it. They just needed that push. It's been real exciting this last week. I've started giving, I do the deliveries, I give them the knowledge of how to divide the plants if they need it, where to plant them, what's the soil type they need.

I'm just recommending to any of the listeners because, as you said, the phones are full, if you have the space, it's actually really easy. Beebalm seeds, $5 to get a hundred thousand of them. You can grow them, give them away, get people started.

Alison Stewart: Love it. Thank you for being somebody who's helping people along. That's part of what we wanted to do in this segment as well, Michele. You wanted to talk about soil and a soil sample and why it's important. Let's start. First of all, why is the soil sample important? What are we looking for? What information are you looking for?

Michele Bakacs: Sure. Soil sampling is critical. Amy and I were lamenting that we didn't get to talk about it last week, but it's the first step. It's really the first step if you're trying to convert over to more environmentally friendly landscaping, you need that foundational information and soil is part of that. We recommend that nothing be added to the landscape before you get a soil test to help you determine what actually you need. Do you need as much fertilizer as you're putting down? Do you need to be liming as much as you are? It's a very easy thing to do. Both Cornell, which is in New York, Cornell Cooperative Extension and Rutgers Cooperative Extension provides soil testing for a fee.

You just take samples from your lawn or from your garden and you can mail it in or you can drop it off. They're the most simple test. It's just fertility and pH. That gives you an idea of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium in your soil, and then also if your soil is more acidic or is it more alkaline. Then they also give you specific recommendations for your landscape on how to correct any problems that you may have so you know, "Am I applying the correct fertilizer in the correct amounts?" That's critical because, again, we don't want to be adding too much chemicals to the landscape because, again, it causes water quality problems.

Alison Stewart: Amy, is there anything that people with pets should keep in mind if they're trying to foster welcoming habitats for other critters and creatures?

Amy Rowe: I know last week we talked about someone that was rewilding and getting some native areas in their yard, and unfortunately, that may provide some habitat for ticks which are a problem especially this time of year. One thing that Michele and I were discussing last week was that if you do install some more natural area, you've let your turf grass go to meadow, and you are having that space, you really want to try to keep a barrier around it. Ticks actually do not like to travel over woodchips or gravel, they travel almost exclusively on plants and grass.

If you put a barrier of woodchips down or rocks or something to signify the area there, it is less likely that ticks will enter into the area that your pets would probably be in. I just want to make sure that those pet owners are thinking about not creating tick habitat necessarily but trying to keep their pets safe while still having a natural area of their yard.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Emily from Chatham, New Jersey. Hi, Emily, thank you for calling All Of It.

Emily: Hi, how are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. I love this topic.

Alison Stewart: Go for it. You're on air.

Emily: Hello. Okay, great. My question is, I have a house that had some pre-existing zoysia grass as well as pre-existing something else kind of grass. Through construction, I would say, like 60% of the lawn was destroyed and I am not interesting in replacing it with anything that's water intensive. I have a lot of deer, I have groundhogs, I have chipmunks, I have bunnies, and I have dogs, and kids. I don't do any fertilizer and I've been doing research on zoysia to see if that's something I should invest more in. I just heard a caller talk about clover which sounded really interesting, but I always think of that as being more water-intensive and I have been looking at sedge grass as well just as another alternative.

I really wanted to get your opinions on zoysia, is it right for this climate? My zoysia was established already, but I don't do anything. I don't water it, it doesn't need to be cut much but, I'm just thoughtful on those things.

Alison Stewart: What do you think, Michele?

Michele Bakacs: I have zoysia grass also in my lawn and zoysia grass is of a warm season grass as opposed to a lot of our other turf grass varieties which are cool season grasses, which means that they thrive in the cooler weather of the spring and the fall, and then in the summer, they go dormant. Zoysia grass, typically you see in southern states, but there's something to be said for zoysia grass, especially with climate change and our summer is becoming longer. Some people don't like zoysia grass because it stays brown longer in the spring. I don't know, zoysia is not a terrible thing and there's different cultivars that are out there.

You could also consider though if you're establishing a lawn, a low-maintenance turf grass varieties like last week we were talking about fine fescues or turf-type fescues, tall fescues, that have really deep root systems and would help infiltrate water. Certainly the clover, certainly the sedge would also be really great to look at.

Alison Stewart: I know-- Oh, go ahead, Amy.

Amy Rowe: I was just going to add that the clover is not water intensive. I just want to clear that up.

Alison Stewart: Good to know. I know you wanted to discuss deer pressure before we ran out of time. Michele, let people know what you want them to know about deer pressure.

Michele Bakacs: You're on Amy. You can absolutely chime in here. Do you want to take it first, Amy?

Amy Rowe: Sure. As the native plants have evolved over time, they have evolved right next to our native fauna, and so the deer have grown up with all of these native plants that we are recommending. Unfortunately, they may be a tasty treat for the dee, and Michele I'm sure will talk about how there are deer-resistant native species and I'll let her talk about that in a minute, but I do want listeners to know that you may need to protect new plant things and things that are getting established, even natives, while your deer are in the area because deer are insatiable as we all know.

Even though we are recommending possible deer-resistant native plants, there are ways to protect them like little tubes for tree seedlings, there are deer fencing options. Just be aware that some of the native plants that are available are very attractive to deer, but I will let Michele recommend some deer-resistant plants.

Michele Bakacs: A lot of the grasses that we're recommending are deer-resistant. A lot of ferns are deer-resistant. We talked a little bit about the beardtongue group, penstemons, those are also deer-resistant and pollinator-friendly, so those are great ones to incorporate. Some things like Joe-Pye-weed also do well against a deer. Then certainly some of our shrubs like mountain laurel is very deer-resistant, so is spicebush. These are ones that when you go to your nursery, you should be asking them for native plants. Even if they don't necessarily carry them, it's important for folks to be talking to their local nurseries about native plants so that they know that people are interested in carrying them.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, I'm going to let you have the last word. You've got about 30 seconds, go for it. Amanda is calling from Greenpoint, by the way.

Amanda: Hi. I'm having a sad day here because today we had to cut down all of our natives because of the absolute infestation of spotted lanternflies and we've done a ton of research, we've done everything we can. We've spent months vinegaring, everything, banding trees and we had to cut them down and it really killed us. We've had them for eight years. We got them from New York Audubon and I just don't know what to do about these spotted lanternflies. They're just a nightmare.

Alison Stewart: Amanda, thank you for calling in. Do you have about 20 seconds of advice, Michele?

Michele Bakacs: I'm wondering why she had to cut down her vegetation. Spotted lanternfly, just give it some time folks, it's a wave that's coming through, but it's going to be ending probably in New York in just a year or two.

Alison Stewart: Michele Bakacs and Amy Rowe are associate professors Rutgers, county agents for the school's Cooperative Extension program. Once again, thank you for coming back and giving us so much of your time.

Michele Bakacs: Thanks for having us.

Amy Rowe: Yes, thank you so much.

 

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