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Brigid Bergin: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. Now, we'll turn to another installment in the All Of It series Small Stakes, Big Opinions, where we take a not-so-serious subject and engage in a seriously animated conversation about it. We've broached culinary conundrums like, is a hot dog a sandwich or not? We've crossed geographic divides like, what divides Upstate New York and Downstate New York? Today, we are tackling something that could make you tipsy pretty quick. What is a martini? Are you of the James Bond persuasion?

James Bond: Vodka?

Waiter 1: Of course.

James Bond: Just drink a martini, shaken not stirred.

Henderson: Oh, that's stirred not shaken. That was right, wasn't it?

James Bond: Perfect. Cheers.

Henderson: Cheers.

Waiter 2: Martini for our guests.

Waiter 3: A pleasure.

Waiter 2: Shaken, not stirred.

Waiter 3: Of course.

James Bond: Vodka martini. Shaken, not stirred. Dry martini.

Waiter 4: We miss you.

James Bond: Wait, three measures of Gordon's, one of vodka, half a measure of Kina Lillet. Shake it ever well, and then add a thin slice of lemon peel. Got it?

Waiter 4: Yes.

Brigid Bergin: Or maybe your objective use of vodka, and are among those who proclaim anything but gin vermouth, and an Oliver Twist is simply not technically nor historically accurate. Or maybe you prefer something on the sweeter side and Espresso martini as an adult dessert, perhaps. We want to hear from you. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also text that number or message us on social media at All Of It WNYC.

What do you think defines a martini? Where is the best place to have one here in New York or elsewhere? What's the most novel take on this cocktail classic that you've tried? Any bartenders out there that want to shout out their own martini creation and tell us what they think makes a martini? Again, the number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692.

My guest took on this thorny topic for the New York Times in her recent article, "The Martini Has Lost Its Mind." Becky Hughes is senior staff editor of New York Times Cooking. Becky, welcome to All Of It.

Becky Hughes: Thank you so much for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Becky, I saw I think two different headlines actually on your story. One was what's in a martini? These days just about anything. Alternatively, the one I read, "The Martini Has Lost Its Mind." Before we get too deep into some of the wilder things you found, why do you think the martini has become such a classic cocktail?

Becky Hughes: I think the martini it's a super strong drink that has its own appeal. I think drinking something served up in a V-shaped glass really has an air of celebration about it. A lot of people that I spoke to for the story, both drinkers and bartenders agree that, especially after the pandemic, when we've spent so long in sweatpants maybe drinking in your own home, maybe not. There's something so I'm going out in New York City about ordering a martini it really is evocative of celebration.

Brigid Bergin: Just so we all have our cards on the table, do you have a martini of preference, a go-to martini?

Becky Hughes: Yes, but I'm told that this is going to upset you.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, dear.

Becky Hughes: I'm dirty vodka martini. Extra dirty, ideally, and lately, I've been ordering it on the rocks, in a rocks glass.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, interesting. I'm not upset. I'm curious. The rocks is just because you want a little bit of a lighter cocktail.

Becky Hughes: You know what, why not have it colder? It's summer, which makes it last a little bit longer. I actually don't think it's that blasphemous. When you think about James Bond, wanted his shaken, he wanted the same effect. I'm just doing it an easier way.

Brigid Bergin: I will credit our producer Zach, who also flagged a very funny clip from-- Now, I'm blanking on the show, The West Wing, where President Bartlet basically has that same criticism of James Bond. Let's go to Eric in Washington Square with a martini preference. Eric, thank you for calling All Of It. What is your martini preference?

Eric: Well, I am a strict martini traditionalist. Call me a martini snob, in fact. I insist on a gin martini which is the classic recipe, and I like it Prohibition-style, which means that it comes with a dash of bitters. During Prohibition, they used orange bitters usually. I happen to prefer Angostura but either will do and I prefer a twist of lemon.

Brigid Bergin: Excellent. Any go-to spot for you in the city or beyond?

Eric: Yes, my house, because I'm the only one who knows how to make it this well. [laughter]

Brigid Bergin: Eric, thank you so much for that call for kicking off what I'm sure will be lively debate about what is in martini and what is not. Becky, I played that James Bond clip, shaken, not stirred. As Eric pointed out, martini purists will only say that a real martini comes with gin. My husband is among them. That seems to stem from the varying stories about the history of the drink. Some say it came from California in the mid-1800s, ties to the Gold Rush. Others say it came back from here in the city at the Knickerbocker Hotel. Do you have a preferred martini origin story?

Becky Hughes: No, I think it might be one of those things that we never get to the bottom of. Both of these origin stories are related to the Gold Rush. I think it's agreed upon that the martini was invented in the 1850s or '60s. It was either someone in Martinez, California, a gold miner, or a gold miner who was on his way from New York to Martinez. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but it definitely involves the Gold Rush and California. The martini that was invented then is probably the one that your husband prefers like two and a half ounces gin, half ounce dry vermouth, twist and olive.

Then, it wasn't until really the start of the 20th century that people started adding all of brine. The dirty martini was invented then, and then it was like the '30s, I think, when people started swapping out gin for vodka, which most martini purists agree is still blasphemy.

Brigid Bergin: [chuckles] Well, we're talking small stakes, strong opinions, what's the martini, here on All Of It right now. My guest is Becky Hughes, senior staff editor at New York Times Cooking. Listeners, we want to hear from you. You can text us, you can call us. What is your strong opinion about what is a martini? The number is 212-433-9692. You can text us, you can reach us on socials. We have a lot more coming up including your calls. Stick around.

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You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin and we are talking small stakes, strong opinions about a very strong drink, the martini. I'm joined by Becky Hughes, senior staff editor of New York Times Cooking. We've got a lot of callers Becky, so we're going to hear some opinions and martinis, and I will let you weigh in on them. Let's start with Linda in Port Jefferson.

Linda: Hello there.

Brigid Bergin: Hello, Linda. Tell us, what is your martini opinion?

Linda: Well, I am very old, having been a bartender for a long time, but I was about 28 years and taught by old-school bartenders from the 1950s. To me, a martini is traditionally gin. It's gin with perhaps a twist of lemon peel which is rubbed along the rim of the glass or an olive, and the story it's been a little bit of drive or both. Every time I saw a James Bond movie, my hair would bristle, but when he said shaken, not stirred, because a gin martini should never be shaken. It bruises the gin. It should be stirred carefully until it's good and cold, and then poured in straight up into a V-shaped glass. A vodka martini is acceptable. Also, never shaken, only stirred.

Brigid Bergin: Linda, I appreciate that. Very strong opinion, big opinion in our small-stakes debate. Let's go to Tim in Panama City Beach, Florida. Tim, thanks for calling All Of It.

Tim: Oh, my pleasure. I just wanted to point out a follow-up. The lady before me said about the martini is actually called a kangaroo. The original gin martini, we follow the older version when the information was imported from Italy and France when they were trying to sell us the Cocchi Americano and Lillet. We use a blanc vermouth in our martinis. The last two things, one is that awkward triangle martini glass is awkward. We like to use a coupe, much easier to drink out of. The last point is my favorite New York cocktail between the Manhattan, the Bronx, and the Brooklyn, the Brooklyn, by far, is one of the best cocktails I've ever tasted as a personal chef and private bartender.

Brigid Bergin: Well, then we've got to hold on for one second, Tim, because what is in Brooklyn?

Tim: Brooklyn is made with bourbon or a rye, and it uses a hard-to-find bitter that it's called pecan. It was a recipe that was originally made in Europe. It was stopped being imported here, and I think an American chef picked up a recipe and started producing it again but, yes, it's a great drink.

Brigid Bergin: Great.

Tim: I recommend anybody to try it.

Brigid Bergin: Thank you, Tim, we appreciate your call. Becky, we have more callers lined up, but I want to give you a chance to react to what we heard there. Some big opinions from Linda and Tim. Any thoughts?

Becky Hughes: I think, and this is probably going to be my standing opinion throughout this, everyone has a strong preference for their martini. Drinking is not a necessity in life. It's for fun. However you really want to drink it, I think there needs to be no shame in ordering it exactly how you want it. My parents like to drink Hendricks shaken with ice, no vermouth, chilled glass, no garnish. To me, I don't know if that's a martini, but they love it, they find it delicious, drink it.

Brigid Bergin: That's what they have, a glass of gin. Let's go to Arabella in Nyack, New York. Arabella, thanks for calling All Of It.

Arabella: Oh, not at all. I just need to strongly disagree with the last caller because part of what I love about a martini, and I always order a vodka martini up very dry with olives and I make a little sign by putting my palms together and my hands out that I want a V neck because I just think it's so elegant. I'm seriously disappointed when they bring me my martini in a V-like social champagne glass or something. I want it in that long neck, V glass with olives, and it's so beautiful. Not only is it delicious, I don't think it has a lot of calories. It goes with everything you're wearing, and it's just sophisticated, and it makes me happy. That's what I always order.

Brigid Bergin: Well, Arabella, I hope you enjoy it when it is served to you. Thanks so much for calling. Becky, I have to go back to some of the reporting you did where you found some mouthwatering or stomach-churning concoctions along the way. First up, there was that TikTok viral sensation from Jazzton Rodriguez. He also writes the blog, Very Good Drinks. What's the drink that's getting all the attention?

Becky Hughes: Yes, he has come up with a chicken soup martini. He takes gin, washes it with mirepoix, so it tastes like celery, onions, and carrots. He uses Manzanilla sherry in place of the vermouth, and he makes a solution of chicken bouillon and MSG instead of brine drizzles with olive oil as garnish. He says it both tastes like a martini like it really drinks like a martini, and it tastes like comforting chicken soup.

Brigid Bergin: Have you tried it?

Becky Hughes: I have not tried it. It's pretty, you have to really commit to the recipe, and I have not yet committed, but it sounds really like something I would love.

Brigid Bergin: You also found a squid ink martini at the American Express Centurion Lounge. Before you tell me anything about the drink, just this place, this is not a place where just anyone can go for a drink, right?

Becky Hughes: Correct. I believe you have to be a card-carrying member of an Amex. Therefore, I was not allowed in the Centurion Lounge to drink a squid ink martini, but I do imagine it would have the effect of eating a squid ink pasta where then you're left with your teeth, you're very conscious of your teeth and your mouth after with the black ink.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to Charles in Brooklyn. Charles, thanks for calling All Of It.

Charles: Hi, thanks for having me. I'm calling about the, it's called an Alaska. It's a variation of the martini that has Yellow Chartreuse and two dashes of orange bitters. It's a little more palatable to people who might not like a strong martini, but it's quite boozy. It's just a little sweeter and has an interesting flavor, and it's a good way to try Chartreuse because it's really expensive at liquor stores and quite hard to find.

Brigid Bergin: Charles, thanks. Is there anywhere that you will find that drink in the city?

Charles: Most bars should be able to make it. My favorite is Leland in Crown Heights because it's close to my apartment, and they make a very good one.

Brigid Bergin: That's great. Charles, thanks for calling All Of It. Becky, sweet takes. There are a whole crop of martinis or drinks served in martini glasses that are sweeter. One notable version that pops up a lot is the espresso martini. Where did it get its start and how does one traditionally make an espresso martini?

Becky Hughes: The espresso martini was invented in the '80s in London. It's probably the most famous example of a sweet "martini." The story goes that it was invented by a model who walked into a bar in London and asked for a drink that would wake her up and "F" her up. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on the radio.

Brigid Bergin: That's as close as you can go.

Becky Hughes: Perfect. It's stuck around since then. I think in the past couple of years, we've seen this revival of taking any sweet cocktail, serving it up in the V-shaped glass, and calling it a martini. Now we'll see one of the martinis that I reported on my story was a Caprese martini at a place called Jac's on Bond in Manhattan. It's sweet, has that balsamic flavor, has some tomato infusion, and has basil. It's sort of a sweet take on a martini, tastes like a Caprese salad. It's a really unusual, unusual drink.

Brigid Bergin: Is there mozzarella involved?

Becky Hughes: I was told that sometimes they'll garnish it with a mozzarella ball, but I don't think that's standard there.

Brigid Bergin: Interesting. I remember, if you're thinking in the Sex and the City era, Carrie and her friends always drinking the Cosmopolitans, often served in martini glasses. In your view, is something like that a martini?

Becky Hughes: I don't think so. I think the critical part of a martini is that it drinks like a martini. It has to give you the feeling of a really strong drink. A cosmo martini feels a little more like it's erring on the side of something fruity, a little bit sour. It just loses the general experience of the martini. Most of the drink professionals that I spoke to for the story agreed that once you put juice in a drink, it can no longer be called a martini. That's just a bridge too far.

Brigid Bergin: That is what disqualifies a drink from a martini. You sampled a lot of some of the more interesting cocktails out there in the city. Can you shout out a couple more of maybe the more unique ones you found?

Becky Hughes: Sure. There's a bar called Albert's in Midtown East. They have a pickle martini which is delicious, and they have one martini that's washed with sushi rice, so it has that starchiness. There's a lovely Martini a Pois at Le Roc in Rockefeller Center. Let's see, there's olive oil martinis at a few different places, including Lobby Bar in Chelsea. There's an oyster mignonette martini at Mars in Astoria, which is served with an oyster on the side.

Brigid Bergin: That to me sounds like maybe the most perfect addition to my martini repertoire, which is I also like a dirty martini, maybe with olives, preferably stuffed with blue cheese, if that is possible. Becky, that's all the time we have for in this installment of Small Stakes, Big Opinions here on All Of It. Becky Hughes is a senior staff editor at New York Times Cooking. Thank you so much for joining me. This has been a lot of fun.

Becky Hughes: Thank you.

Brigid Bergin: On tomorrow's show, we're playing the hits of the Public Song Project, All Of It listener-generated songbook based on work that's in the public domain, plus a deep dive into 100 years of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

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Before I say goodbye, I want to thank the incredible team at All Of It who make the show. Each weekday I've learned so much from you. Keeping the seat warm for Alison, who will be back in September. This has been All Of It. It's produced by Andrea Duncan-Mao, Kate Hinds, Jordan Lauf, Simon Close, Zach Gottehrer-Cohen, L. Malik Anderson, and Luke Green. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda, Jason Isaac, and Bill O'Neill. Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, catch up by listening to our podcasts. This has been All Of It. I'll meet you back here another time.

 

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