Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A 2023 study from the Pew Research Center found that about one-third of Americans have a tattoo, and 22% of adults have more than one. And for a century, New York has been the center of the tattoo world, with the modern tattooing process taking shape right here in the Bowery. A new exhibit at the city reliquary focuses on the history of tattoos here in New York and one type of ink in general, tattoos of the Statue of Liberty. For decades, New Yorkers of all stripes have loved getting Lady Liberty inked on their body. The exhibit contains vintage photos and designs of old statues of liberty tattoos, as well as images of modern Lady Liberty designs. The exhibit is titled, let's hope I get this right, Liberty the tattooed lady, the great Bartholdi statue as depicted in tattooing. It's up now at the City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization in Williamsburg. I'm joined now by the founder and curator of the museum, Dave Herman. Hi, Dave.

Dave Herman: Hi.

Alison Stewart: And along with his co-curator, tattoo artist Michelle Miles of the daredevil tattoo shop and museum. Nice to meet you as well.

Michelle Miles: Thanks for having us.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's hear from you. Do you have a New York themed tattoo? Could it be of the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building? Maybe even a pizza rat? We want to hear about your New York City-inspired tattoo, what it means to you, or maybe you want to give your favorite tattoo shop a shout-out. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. You can also hit us up on social media, @allofitwnyc. We like pictures of tattoos, too.

You can send those to social media as well, or you can call or text us at 212-433-9692. We are talking tattooed. So people who don't necessarily know about how the City Reliquary started, tell us how it started. It's a cool story.

Dave Herman: Oh, yes. Thanks. Well, first of all, thank you, Alison for having us in here. It's really an honor. We're no longer in the municipal building, but to be here on the 100th anniversary of WNYC is very exciting for us.

Alison Stewart: Very exciting.

Dave Herman: It's an honor and very humbling. The City Reliquary, it's actually very appropriate that we're here just the day after 9/11 because in many ways, our museum was really formed in those post-9/11 days and we sought out to build a space that was both going to help people feel that civic pride that they have in New York City while also preserving its history, knowing that history is always in the making and constantly changing. We're there to grab on.

Alison Stewart: The first time I saw it, I was telling you, I was walking towards Chelsea Gardens, and I was like, what is that? What am I looking at? Tell me how you decided to start this exhibit, the tattoo exhibit.

Dave Herman: Oh, sure. Well, the tattoo exhibit came along because actually, we're here with Michelle, who's been a friend of mine for a long time and been tattooing on me for even longer than the City Reliquary has existed. At the reliquary, we don't just have curators go out into the community and pull out information and interpret it, we prefer to do a lot of collaborating.

And so in this situation, it was the perfect collaboration to be able to work with Michelle and have her bring all of her knowledge of local tattoo history that has happened on the Bowery. She's really become one of the foremost experts on that.

Alison Stewart: All right, we're going to focus on your expertise for a moment Michelle. A modern-day tattooing began in the Bowery. What do we know about how that process came about? Why the Bowery? When did it start?

Michelle Miles: Well, the very first professional tattooer was on the Lower East Side and he was first listed as tattooing in the New York City directory in 1858. He was a German immigrant, a sailor, and a little bit later, the very first electric tattoo machine was patented on the Bowery in 1891. If you were coming to New York City and you wanted to have a good time and get your drink on, the Bowery was the place to go.

It was the first working class entertainment district in New York City and a lot of times, the sailors, when they got to town, that would be their first step. They would make a beeline for the Bowery. Naturally, the tattoo artists found their way there. At one point, there were a lot of tattooers working along the bowery but the very first, most important innovators were right in that couple blocks right there at Chatham Square.

Alison Stewart: How did it change the neighborhood once the tattoo artists became popular?

Michelle Miles: You mean more recently?

Alison Stewart: No, originally, when they first started out.

Michelle Miles: I don't know how much they changed the neighborhood. I mean, just the Bowery had this seedy reputation and I think tattooing went along with that. Basically, when you think of tattoo shops back then, it's not tattoo shops like you imagine them today. Most of them, they were doing their business in the back of other businesses. Pretty much every barber shop along the Bowery would have a couple chairs for some tattooers in the back. It just reflected that overall working class, rowdy drinking vibe that was down there.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. They're already starting to come in. Peter is calling from the North Shore. Hi, Peter. Thanks for calling All of It.

Peter: Hey, how are you doing?

Alison Stewart: Doing great.

Peter: I just want to give a quick shout out to Big Joe and Son tattoo in White Plains. Big Joe is no longer with us, but his son Adam, still tattoos. He was my first tattoo and now his son also tattoos. We're already on three generations of American traditional tattooers and I'm actually on my way to see the son today.

Alison Stewart: All right. Well, make sure you tell them about this segment. Let's talk to Craig on line three, calling from Morningside Heights. Hi, Craig.

Craig: Hi. Good afternoon. First time caller. Thanks for having me. A few years ago, I finished the New York City marathon and to celebrate, I got a skyline of New York City wrapping around my calf, so I would never forget the accomplishment.

Alison Stewart: Love that. Thank you so much for calling in. Actually, Dave, you have a tattoo of the Statue of Liberty. Yes?

Dave Herman: That's the most recent one that Michelle just did in honor of this exhibit on the forearm here. Yes, that was inspired by the work of art that we have on the exhibition flyer and it's from their collection and right as you walk in the door to the exhibit but I also have a lot of other tattoos that mark back to New York City history, including the General Slocum steamboat disaster and the Brooklyn Bridge.

Alison Stewart: A lot of people didn't know that tattooing was illegal in New York City for a long time, right, Michelle?

Michelle Miles: Yes, it was illegal from 1961 until 1997 and people are always surprised to hear that. They're like, oh, my gosh. It was illegal in New York City, of all places. But I actually started tattooing in 1991. I worked for six years underground before it was legalized. In all that time, nobody was ever actually busted for tattooing in New York. When I started out, nobody I knew actually even wanted it to be legal.

That's part of the reason why I think it was underground for so long but when I heard it was going to be legalized, that was when I opened up my shop, Daredevil, on Ludlow street, with my business partner, Brad Fink.

Alison Stewart: Dave, what sort of early tattooing artifacts do you have as part of your exhibit?

Dave Herman: Oh, well, this has been a really exciting show to pull together because some of my favorite stuff that Michelle has been able to gather from some from their own collection, some from lenders from around the country, include the early acetates, which were the form that you would use as an engraved piece of plastic, basically, and you would then rub in some powdered-- What is it?

Michelle Miles: Charcoal.

Dave Herman: Charcoal? Okay. I always think of it like graphite. Then you basically are pressing that onto your skin and then it leaves an impression of that image that then the tattoo artist would have to tattoo into your skin without erasing it by rubbing it off on their hands. Those are fun to see and very tactile and some of the earliest pieces that are in the exhibit date back to when the tattoo was very new so to think in terms of, like, wow--

Michelle Miles: When the--

Dave Herman: Go ahead.

Michelle Miles: When the statue was very new.

Dave Herman: Yes. She's new in the harbor and within the first 10, 20 years, people are already saying, hey, this is a significant icon that I want to align myself with and have it indelibly inked into my skin. Those are all really exciting to see.

Alison Stewart: Let's take another call. This is Doris calling us from the Lower East Side. Hi, Doris. Thanks so much for calling.

Doris: Oh, you're very welcome.

Alison Stewart: And tell us your story.

Doris: I'm glad to be on. Okay. I was 38 years old, and I'm now over twice that age and I went to a tattoo artist whose name I don't remember, and she asked me what I wanted, and I explained to her that I wanted a shooting star and planets and she took my shoulder that had a small mole on it and made that all red, blue, and yellow, different kinds of shooting star and different kinds of planets and sun and moon.

I went recently to a tattoo place here on the Lower East Side and I asked them to please sharpen it up. I said, it's very blurry the colors are indistinct and the guy looked at me and he said, you, lady are wearing an icon. He said, "I wouldn't touch that." He said, "If you want another sharp tattoo, you have another shoulder." And with that, I was escorted out.

[laughter}

Alison Stewart: Doris, thank you so much for your call. My guests are Dave Herman, founder and curator of the City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization, and Michelle Miles, co-curator and owner of Daredevil Tattoo shop and museum. We are talking about New York themed tattoos. If you have one, give us a call. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. Dave, why do you think so many people have images of Lady Liberty?

Dave Herman: I think the Statue of Liberty for us at the museum and for a lot of people is nice because she's what we call a secular saint. It has that same religious iconography and the power of association that many people find in religion, but without having that specificity. It can relate in the same way to people of many different backgrounds and so I think that gives her a broad appeal.

Also, for getting a Statue of Liberty tattoo, you are becoming a part of history itself, just like we said with this caller that we heard. Once you get that on your skin, it is an artifact in itself and you are now carrying that with you at all times, and you are preserving it in a certain way. I always think of it that way, too. You make yourself the artifact.

Alison Stewart: When you are doing a tattoo, Michelle, of the Statue of Liberty. What's hard about it? What's easy about it?

Michelle Miles: I mean, you really want to capture that face and make it nice and probably just the easy part is having fun with it. It's such a fun design to work with. We're actually putting together a book right now of the show and seeing all the images together on the page is a lot of fun when you see these different interpretations. I guess also one of the hard things is getting the hands right because you see a lot of the images in the show have some pretty funky hands going on.

Alison Stewart: During the course of the 20th century and into the 21st century, how would you describe the trends in tattoos?

Michelle Miles: It's changed. Just the way that it's exploded is pretty crazy. I've heard you used to get tattooed to be out, now you get tattooed to be in. I never thought when I started tattooing over 30 years ago that it would ever become this completely mainstream thing. When I'm watching TV, every company uses tattoos on their models and stuff like that. That's something that I can't believe.

To me, being a Lower East side tattooer, it's interesting that I feel like tattooing in the Lower East Side and the Bowery have really grown up together because they both had these disreputable backgrounds and now both of them, there's luxury hotels on the Bowery and then tattooing is something that's totally mainstream.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a couple more calls. I believe it is Angela. Hi, Angela. Thanks for calling.

Angela: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I have two tattoos. I don't have any of New York, but I'm going to be getting one soon. I'm going to get two. One of the Oakland Bay bridge and one of the Brooklyn bridge because I grew up in Oakland, but I've lived in Brooklyn for 20 years. That's my next two.

Alison Stewart: Good luck with that. Let's talk to Amanda. Hi, Amanda. Thanks for calling All of It.

Amanda: Hi, thanks for taking my call. My first tattoo, I got of an ice cream cone smushed on my foot upside down, like it'd been dropped because I've worked in ice cream my whole life and I actually broke my foot at an ice cream shop while at work. I thought it'd be a fun way to commemorate the broken bone, so there's just a melting cone on my leg.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's so funny. Thank you so much for calling in. I'm curious, how often do you have people tell you stories behind their tattoos when they come into the shop?

Michelle Miles: Pretty much always.

Alison Stewart: Yes?

Michelle Miles: Yes. Some people, I think people that are big collectors, they might have less stories. It's more just like, "Oh, this looks really cool." And something grabs them but if people don't have a lot of tattoos, there usually is a big story behind it.

Alison Stewart: When people come in and say, I want a lady liberty tattoo, what have they told you?

Dave Herman: For me, I think that there's always a nice aspect to associating the tattoo with a moment in time. That's how I've related to it. The Statue of Liberty tattoo that I got related to this exhibit for us but in other moments in my lifetime, I've tried to mark them with meaningful images and artwork. My background is as a visual artist also so I get to build my own story as I go through life.

Alison Stewart: What's your favorite Lady Liberty tattoo that's in the show?

Dave Herman: Oh. For me, it's always hard to pick. I get this question a lot. The favorite object of one sort or another. I really love the story behind the sheet of flash that Michelle actually found the template for so that they could become one. You have the artwork itself that's drawn out and then the stencil that's made so that it can be transferred onto the body. Through two friends of Michelle's, they were able to match the same artwork together, even though they never knew that they had them.

To see and to feel like our museum exhibit is a part of bringing these communities together in ways that we weren't even expecting, that's always a very special moment for us. That's definitely my favorite aspect.

Alison Stewart: What's your favorite?

Michelle Miles: He took mine.

[laughter]

Dave Herman: Oh, sorry.

Michelle Miles: I would say for me, my favorite part of the show was that it gave me this excuse to go to different friends and see their collections in person, something that-- it was a great excuse for that and to have these connections, these different pieces that are from the '20s, '30s, that you see the different parts come together in unexpected ways.

Alison Stewart: This is a text. Not quite pizza rat, but our daughter is getting her first tattoo today, and it is a local rodent, a mouse that took up residence in our kitchen. My wife created a cartoon version of that mouse to make mice less scary for our kids, and it became her signature artwork, gracing birthday cards, holiday gifts, and household signage. Our daughter has been working with a tattoo artist to convert that cartoon mouse to a tattoo in memory of my wife who died last fall. The ink will hit her skin today.

Dave Herman: Oh, my gosh. That's beautiful.

Alison Stewart: That's a beautiful segment. Hey, if you have a New York City tattoo, give us a call, 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. We'll take more of your calls. We'll have more with Dave Herman and Michelle Miles after the break. This is All of It. This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests are Dave Herman, the founder and curator of City Reliquary Museum and Civic Organization, and Michelle Miles, co-curator and owner of Daredevil Tattoo shop and Museum.

We are talking about Liberty, the Tattooed Lady. It's their exhibition. When we're talking about Lady Liberty, it seems like the crown is a really big focus for tattoo artists. What is the significance of her crown? Why is it so important to get right, actually?

Michelle Miles: One thing that is interesting about the crown is that the rays that are such a signature part of it are not actually supposed to be the crown, that's actually supposed to be the reflected light off of her head.

Alison Stewart: Is it? I didn't know that.

Michelle Miles: That's an interesting little detail, but I think it's just-- you can even take away the lady and just have the crown and people will know what it is. I think it's just such an identifying thing to her.

Dave Herman: As long as it has seven rays.

Alison Stewart: Oh, wait. Tell me more.

Dave Herman: I always notice when you see people's depictions of the Statue of Liberty, to me, I'm a little bit of a stickler for details because she's supposed to have seven rays that represent the seven wonders of the world or the seven continents. You often see people using their memory or their own idea of what the Statue of Liberty looks like and it may have, you know, 10 or 20 different rays, which as I see more and more of these artist interpretations, I start to grow to love that vernacular interpretation but when it comes down to it, on my arm, I want to make sure she's got seven rays.

Alison Stewart: We've got a question from Instagram. It says, please ask the guests, I was planning to get my first tattoo tomorrow and was just informed about I have a nickel allergy. Is black ink known to be bad?

Michelle Miles: You really don't find many people that have trouble with the black ink. It's very, very, very rare.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Robin. Robin has a question as well. Thanks for calling in, Robin.

Robin: Sure. I've planned to have a tattoo since I was nine. I haven't gotten one yet because I'm pretty picky but I had a question about logistics. I'm now 65, and so my skin is a lot looser since it was when I was nine and I was wondering if there any problems to tattooing older skin.

Michelle Miles: It's a little bit more tricky. I mean, a lot has to do with how much time you've spent in the sun. That probably more than anything else, but no, there's no problem tattooing older skin.

Alison Stewart: Are there any health considerations people should take into account when they're thinking like, "Oh, I might want to get a tattoo"?

Michelle Miles: I think it's the same common sense that you use when you're eating at a restaurant. You walk in, you look around and see if the place looks clean and is reputable and use good sense.

Alison Stewart: This is from-- who is this? Well, it doesn't say who he's from. Nina. It's from Nina. My next tattoo will be the Unisphere in Queens. It's my favorite NYC iconic image. Someone else has sent in a tattoo that you did, I believe. Number seven. It says, done by my favorite tattoo artist, Michelle Miles. I tried to move away from New York, and on one of my homesick visits, Michelle tattooed this on me. I go back for a few months later, it's Jill. Do you know what's the--

Michelle Miles: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: I love New York. [laughs] When people are asking you to post pictures of-- People are asking you on social media to post pictures of their Statue of Liberty tattoos, what are some themes and patterns you've seen from people?

Michelle Miles: What I think is very interesting is that there's these three different reasons why people respond to the Statue of Liberty. Some people get her because she really represents New York City and then other people, she represents the country and then other people, it's that she represents the idea of liberty. I think you have these different focuses that people have with it.

Alison Stewart: If people see a design in your museum show and they think, gosh, I'd really love to get that design. Is it possible?

Michelle Miles: Oh, I've been doing a bunch of them lately.

Alison Stewart: Have you seen that?

Dave Herman: Yes, they're looking good. It's nice to feel-- as a part of the exhibit, we actually opened it up to have more modern interpretations sent in. If you came to the show and you said, "Oh, I've got a Statue of Liberty." We could take a picture and then post it into the exhibit itself. Michelle has already been calling me on occasion saying, "Okay, I got another one for the show."

Alison Stewart: My producer noticed that there seems to be a fixation on indigenous designs in some of the designs. What do we know about why someone might want to include indigenous designs?

Dave Herman: I think in today's society, a lot of people are able to express themselves and their connection to the indigenous cultures that they actually are connected to personally but in history, that has happened as a way that people have been exploring other cultures and stuff. A lot of times we would refer to that as cultural appropriation. I think if we look at it in terms of art history, we notice that if for instance, in art display, we'll see that there was a specific timeframe when this was very popular around-- the same time that we're seeing Statue of liberties, we're seeing Indian headdresses and stuff.

That's very different from the type of indigenous tattooing that we would see today. Of course, we've learned a lot. At that time, many people that lived on the East Coast and were maybe from immigrant families, still didn't have an understanding of what indigenous cultures were in the country, and that was the wild west frontier and exoticized and romanticized in some ways.

I always said, it's funny that people would ask-- me myself, I actually came from a family of expatriate New Yorkers and grew up in Florida. My love of New York came as I grew up and became an adult. I really identified with my family's past and I wanted to find a way to reconnect to that but I was asked once-- I was a firefighter when I started the City Reliquary as well.

In the firehouse, you get a lot of rubbing and prodding and joking around and stuff. One of the questions that was asked of me is like, "Hey, how come you have all these New York City tattoos, but you're actually born in Florida?" Touche. I was like, hey, that is very legit. But I'll also say that a lot of people will get, Chinese characters or tribal tattoos. They're not actually from those tribes or from Chinese ancestry and the response was, touche. As he rolled up a sleeve and showed a Chinese character and said, "I understand now there's ways that you can identify with other cultures and appreciate that."

And hopefully doing it today in a respectful way and an acknowledgment that you're doing that from a position of privilege and admiration.

Alison Stewart: We've got an interesting call. Ayesha online two has a question for you as a tattoo artist. Hi, Ayesha. Thanks for calling in.

Ayesha: Hi, thank you for having me. I just wonder if, as a tattoo artist, do you take any responsibility sometimes for maybe someone who may come in to get a tattoo, maybe under duress or sometimes you'll see on social media, some tattoo artists that will maybe tattoo a boyfriend's face on their face, a picture of their face and it doesn't feel like it's coming from an authentic place. I just wonder if you ever say no to tattoos, maybe that you feel aren't something that they necessarily want or really thought out.

Alison Stewart: Do you ever find yourself in the position of saying no?

Michelle Miles: Thankfully no. I haven't really experienced anything like that for a really long time. If we do get something that there is some sense of that, I would definitely ask the person, like, hey, are you sure you want this? I will say, though, the opposite of that is that I've been able to help some human trafficking victims cover up tattoos and worked even with the FBI, with some of the people who have testified in cases against the people who trafficked them.

Alison Stewart: That's really interesting. Wow. Let's talk to Jess. Hi, Jess. Calling in from Brooklyn.

Jess: Hi. Long time, first time.

Alison Stewart: Excellent.

Jess: I have two New York City tattoos. 12 years ago, I got the Chrysler building on the outside of my left calf and then two years ago, I got the parachute jump from Coney Island on my right leg.

Alison Stewart: What made you get them?

Jess: I'm also a transplant. I grew up in Dallas, but this summer marked 20 years of living in New York City. The Chrysler building was inspired by just one of those moments where the skyline just knocks you out and it's my favorite building.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. This one is I have a tattoo of a lily, which is a type of flower growing by my great-grandmother's grave at Mount Olive Cemetery in Maspeth. I had four miscarriages, the first of which came shortly after September 11, and don't have anywhere to visit those losses so her grave came to be that for me. It's not really a typical New York City tattoo, but that's what it is for me.

That's from Anna in Brooklyn. Anna, thank you so much for sharing that. You heard that at the top of the segment, the Pew Research Center says that a third of Americans have tattoos. Why do you think it is? Why do you think so many people have tattoos?

Dave Herman: I think that it has a lot to do with appreciation of art. Many people either come from artistic backgrounds or admire art and they want to have some of that for themselves and use it in a very personal way. Also, it's become much more accessible, even since we've been talking about it becoming legalized, there are very high standards. When you walk into a tattoo shop, certainly like Daredevil, it's like walking into almost a medical office. It's very high standards of sanitary conditions and I think that boosts people's confidence and makes them feel like, hey, I can do this too.

Alison Stewart: What are you noticing in terms of tattoo trends lately?

Michelle Miles: Oh, if I could add to what Dave said. For me, I feel like there's so many ways that our bodies change and so many things that we aren't able to pick about our bodies but then tattooing is this thing that you do choose. I know for myself as I get older and I'm not as cute as I used to be, I love my tattoos. It's the one thing that really expresses who I am and it can even compensate for what maybe you don't have on the outside of you. When I was younger, having these tattoos instead of just being some young girl, it made me feel tough.

Alison Stewart: What are you noticing people want for tattoos lately?

Michelle Miles: I think these days, I mean, just there's more of a range of styles. People are experimenting with all these different techniques that weren't really so much around before but also, what we really enjoy is that there's a real embrace of traditional tattooing, which is our favorite. Having our museum and stuff, people come into our shop and check out the museum and they can actually get something off the walls and literally keep history alive through these tattoos.

Alison Stewart: Liberty, the Tattooed Lady is at the City Reliquary. Let me give the address. 370 Metropolitan Avenue in Brooklyn, New York. My guests have been Dave Herman and Michelle Miles. Thank you so much for coming in and taking our listeners' calls.

Michelle Miles: Thanks for having us.

Dave Herman: Thanks, Alison. It's an honor.

 

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