[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here today. On the show, after 13 years, sleep no more, we'll be closing. We'll talk about the show with two people involved. We'll also talk to Poet Kaveh Akbar. He will join me to discuss his debut novel titled Martyr!

It tells the story of a man who becomes obsessed with the idea of becoming a martyr until he meets a dying woman spending her final days at the Brooklyn Museum talking to strangers. She talks to him, and he changes a bit. We'll talk about it. New York Times writer David Leonhardt is here to talk about his article, The Misguided War on the SAT.

We'll also preview some music being released this year. That is the plan, but we're going to get this started with some news that rocked fans of music everywhere.

[music]

Alison Stewart: The world of music journalism was shaken last week with the announcement that Pitchfork, the nearly three-decade-old reviewer and blog would be folded into the magazine, GQ. The announcement came in a memo from Condé Nast, the media conglomerate that owns both entities. In an article for the Atlantic, staff writer Spencer Korn Haber writes, "Much is still unknown about Pitchfork's future, but music fans have reason to worry we're losing the most important culture publication of the 21st Century.

Pitchfork was founded in 1996 and fashioned itself as a successor to cutting-edge music mags like Rolling Stone or Spin but for an early internet audience and industry. Its brand has been built around a number of things, including a numbered review system that has been the subject of both attention and ire and appetite for obscure and experimental music that got little coverage elsewhere, and an enduring willingness, or sometimes eagerness to be harshly critical, backed up by a commitment to deep listening and thoughtful research writing.

The news about Pitchfork comes at a time when many of these qualities seem increasingly hard to find in music journalism that itself, that landscape seems to be shrinking. In October, the music blog, the distributor Bandcamp, announced that it would be laying off 50% of its staff. Joining me now to discuss the Pitchfork news in the context of media's many woes is Spencer Kornhaber, author of that Atlantic piece, A Dark Omen for the Future of Music. Hi, Spencer.

Spencer Kornhaber: Hi.

Alison Stewart: How many Pitchfork employees have been laid off in this reshuffling?

Spencer Kornhaber: I'm not sure of the number, but it sounds like-- I've heard about half, and a lot of names that readers of the site would be very familiar with and really some real shocking names to see on the list of people who have gone.

Alison Stewart: For example?

Spencer Kornhaber: Amy Phillips is a legendary editor there, Ryan Dobel as well, they've been there for more than a decade now and are some of the people that made Pitchfork what people think of as Pitchfork.

Alison Stewart: In your article for the Atlantic, you open with a look at the word indie. You write the word indie has lost a lot of its credibility over the years, but that it continues to represent something important. Why did you want to open with the idea of what indie means?

Spencer Kornhaber: Pitchfork is so bound up with that term, indie, which people throw around, and it can mean something like the style of your house or the style of your bedding, or it's been watered down, but it's supposed to mean independent. When I think about Pitchfork, the first thing I think about is its independence.

Even after it was bought by Condé Nast, it still stood for this idea of evaluating music as music and trusting the writer's own ears and judgment to say something about the music that was not allied with what the music industry might want someone to say, was not allied with what was trending among popular culture and was really more about being true to your own, or the writer's own critical faculties.

Alison Stewart: Can you share with us a little bit about the early history of Pitchfork? I know it was founded by Ryan Schreiber, I think is how you say his name in '96. How did it start out? What did it do, or what did it offer that other publications or blogs weren't offering?

Spencer Kornhaber: I think it was part of this wave of music geeks that were getting online all at the same time and starting their own magazines, their own blogs, somewhat patterned after Rolling Stone spin with that numerical review system, but also taking inspiration from underground and punk zines, these leaflets that get passed out at punk shows.

Really trying to shine a light on underground scenes, on music that people that aren't in the mainstream. Ryan Schreiber, I believe, was a record store clerk, and so there's this stereotype of the record store clerk that we all know from the movie High Fidelity, where the record store clerk is a snob, but also someone like a teacher, someone who's seeking out things that other people aren't listening to, and really wanting to show off maybe their expertise, but also spread the gospel of the music they love.

You felt that record store geekiness in Pitchfork's very core at the beginning. Something about the tone of the site in those days really stood out. I remember coming across the site in the early 2000s and being scandalized by some of the things I read on it, or the way that certain things were said, but that scandalized or outraged feeling drew me and I think a lot of other people closer to it. It was a very spicy read at times.

Alison Stewart: You write about your introduction to Pitchfork a review of an album that got a 1.9. You had a very Pitchforkian first experience. Would you share that story with us?

Spencer Kornhaber: Yes. I was 14, 15 years old, and I was really into this band, Tool, a very popular band. They put out this album that I thought was a masterpiece. It blew my mind. I'd started googling around, hanging out on Tool's message boards and I came across Pitchfork's review. I didn't understand it. It was written from the point of view of a 14 or 15-year-old boy who really liked Tool and was raving about the album.

It was satire. It was a satire of someone who was exactly like me, and it was making fun of what the writer saw as the naivete of a younger listener who has never heard a complicated guitar solo in their life. It was a direct attack on my very existence, and I hated it. For some reason, I kept going back to the site day after day to read more things like that.

[laughter]

I still love that album, but I certainly understand the critique they were making. I've been turned to a lot of other great music over the years because of the site.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with Atlantic staff writer Spencer Kornhaber. He wrote a piece called A Dark Omen for the Future of Music. It was announced that Pitchfork was going to be folded into GQ, but half the staff was laid off. I was thinking about this, if you think about Rolling Stone being for boomers and Spin and Vibe being for people like me, Gen Xers, does this mean that Pitchfork really is the millennial music publication?

Spencer Kornhaber: Yes, 100%. I think that it's the property that has defined millennial aesthetics, millennials stereotypes, and popular culture more than any other. People think of millennials as earnest go-getters who have their taste in personal branding and individuality and are really all into the arcade fire and maybe Kanye West. That's Pitchfork to a tee. That template was partly set by Pitchfork.

Alison Stewart: You explained in the piece how the rise of Spotify and other streaming platforms really upended the traditional music review. How have streaming services impacted the review, the big music review?

Spencer Kornhaber: Well, they've taken away one of the main reasons that music reviews existed, or one of the reasons that people went to read music reviews, which was to get a preview of music they couldn't listen to all that easily. You'd read about this amazing-sounding record in Rolling Stone, and then you would go to the record store and buy it, and then possibly be very disappointed by what you heard, not really lining up with the writer or whatever your reaction would be.

That was a real part of the economy of music journalism. That's basically gone now that you can pull up any song you want on Spotify and listen to it for a very small amount of money that you pay every month. That's certainly been a blow to the industry just losing that utilitarian purpose. At the same time, algorithms have really taken the place of music magazines and publications when it comes to recommending listeners what they should be listening to.

Algorithms are tailored to each individual listener's preferences based on what they've listened to before, and so they can be very, very effective at keeping someone pleased with the music that shows up on their playlist every day, but it's not necessarily as good at challenging them or making them think about music in a different way, or turning them onto things they wouldn't have listened to otherwise.

Alison Stewart: Pitchfork long had a reputation for being snobby, very pleased with themselves [chuckles] when you read the reviews, and knowing more than you know, and knowing bands that you don't know and et cetera, but they did start to review folks like Taylor Swift. Was that a matter of adapt or perish?

Spencer Kornhaber: It's a good question of whether that particular move is an adopt or perish thing. Music journalism over the years has become more diverse and less stuffy and less interested in just the indie obscure thing. There is a real understanding that people want to read smart commentary about the things that actually shape the lives and society that they live in. I would argue that any music publication not covering Taylor Swift is out to lunch. It just is the point of the job.

There is this other side of it where I certainly know as a music critic working for a publication that there is an incentive to write more about artists like Taylor Swift these days because they dominate so much of the culture's conversation and because we can see traffic, and once you know how many people are reading something, obviously that's going to drive more traffic to the more popular subjects. It's a careful balance. Ideally, anyone who's a music critic now is thinking about how to balance this need to speak to those broader audience with also the desire to lift up things that aren't getting as much attention.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Atlantic staff writer Spencer Kornhaber, the name of the piece is A Dark Omen for the Future of Music. We are talking about Pitchfork as we know it, ending it as we know it. We think it'll have a little bit of future. We'll talk about that in a minute. Pitchfork might be most famous for its numbered review system. How did that system help create or forge Pitchfork's identity?

Spencer Kornhaber: People in the music world are-- People love Pitchfork. They're obsessed with it, and they're also are terrified of it because of that numerical system. A low number can really define the narrative around your album in the way that no other publication's judgment really could. People like to hate on this idea of quantifying art and certainly, it's a messy and precise practice, but obviously, it's part of why people read Pitchfork, and why Rolling Stone was successful too with this five-star rating system. People want that kind of quantification.

It gives you something to latch onto, and it works the best when it's paired with really thoughtful, in-depth writing, which is exactly what Pitchfork provided. It's too bad that sometimes people will latch onto a numerical score and interpret it as meaning something without actually reading the review. There have been a lot of examples of albums getting a 7.3, which a fan of the artist might think is a little low based on their expectations. You read the review, and it's really a thoughtful, informed, fair, and enthusiastic take on the music. It causes problems to quantify music that way, but part of the game of being a music fan is embracing things like that.

Alison Stewart: It's going to be folded into GQ, which is interesting, and people may not necessarily realize that it was under the Condé Nast umbrella, and GQ has historically been a male-focused publication. Do you have any thoughts there? Ladies like music too.

Spencer Kornhaber: Ladies like music too. Pitchfork was for a long time, very associated with the idea of the white male music fan, and that's the very classic idea that-- It comes from high fidelity too. This idea that only guys are really into music, but as you're saying, ladies are into music. Over the years, Pitchfork really made impressive strides towards diversifying its staff, diversifying its coverage areas, and it's really fabulous to read and just scan through the array of artists that they review every week or it has been the past few years, and that's been a really special thing about its progression.

Certainly, GQ is Gentleman's Quarterly. It's just hard to imagine that they are going to be as committed to that idea, but it's early days. We don't really know what it means. It could just be behind-the-scenes organizational change, but on the other hand, they are losing a lot of people that made Pitchfork what it is.

Alison Stewart: What is the dark omen in the title of your piece, A Dark Omen for the Future of Music?

Spencer Kornhaber: It's less human curation, less human discussion, less human determination of what music rises to the top, what music can survive in our society. Every day I open my email inbox and I have a lot and a lot of emails from publicists for these small bands that really, really want to be reviewed. It's impossible for one person to ever possibly even listen to all the music that comes out every week, but a publication like Pitchfork was very committed to the idea of taking on that flood of music that's made by people really who are brilliant, and maybe don't have the platform to reach an audience, but a number of them have gotten that platform through a Pitchfork review.

If it's all down to Spotify telling you what you're going to like based on what you liked the day before, it seems to me that it's going to winnow down the opportunities for interesting boundary-pushing artists to be heard.

Alison Stewart: My guest has been Spencer Kornhaber Atlantic staff writer. The name of his piece is A Dark Omen for the Future of Music. Thanks for talking Pitchfork with us.

Spencer Kornhaber: Thank you.

[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue our conversation about music news with a preview of some highly anticipated 2024 releases, including works from MGMT, Billie Eilish, Dua Lipa, Green Day, Ariana Grande, and as you just heard, Future Islands who are joining us for a listening party tonight live. Joining us right now as the producer of the Vulture Podcast Switched On Pop, Reanna Cruz. Reanna, welcome back.

Reanna Cruz: Happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. What album are you excited for this year? Do you have any concert plans for the next few months? Who are you excited to see on tour? What will you be listening to this year? You can call in and join us on the air. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or you can text to us at that number as well. Also, you can hit us up on social media @AllOfITWNYC. We are talking 2024 Music. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. That is the number to call and join us on air or text to us at that number. Let's dive right in.

This is something I'm very excited about, Brittany Howard. Last year she announced her second solo album. What Now is on the way, it's due out in February. What is something new from Brittany that you're expecting to hear on this album, Reanna?

Reanna Cruz: I love Brittany Howard, and I've loved her [chuckles] since the Alabama Shakes days. Her last album, Jaime was really great, super personal. I'm really excited for What Now because I feel like her artistry is only going upward and upward in terms of concept, in terms of style. This next record has a couple of singles out. They're all really good. I'm getting more of the rocky, the soul elements, and it feels angrier than Jaime, and I like that a lot. I'm soaked for this album.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a little Brittany Howard. This is What Now.

[MUSIC - Brittany Howard: What Now]

I don't wanna confuse you for fulfillment

I don't want to wonder what our love is

I might be the one to cause you trouble

I've been asking questions you don't wanna know

I wonder if I'm here just so I'm not alone

It's painful, but I might as well say sorry

I surrender, let me go

I don't have love to give you more

You're fucking up my energy

I told the truth, so set me free

If you want someone to hate then blame it on me

Blame it on me

Blame it on me, girl

Blame it on me

If you want someone to hate then blame it on me

I've been making plans that don't include you anymore

Alison Stewart: That's Brittany Howard, What Now. Reanna I was following her Instagram and she was showing how she made this track, and it was interesting, and a couple of the comments saying, "Wow, I really like Alabama Shakes sound better." I think I really like the idea of Brittany Howard being Brittany Howard.

Reanna Cruz: Me too. I think the sound that Brittany Howard is doing in her solo career is more poppy. I think it's more friendly for radio in all of its guises. I've heard What Now many times on NPR member stations. I do like the sound for her, and I do think it's a little bit more authentic.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about MGMT's Loss of Life, a fifth Studio album, the first one in six years. What have they been doing?

Reanna Cruz: MGMT has had an interesting arc over the last couple of years. Their last album, Little Dark Age was a '80s synth pop-inspired record, and a couple of the songs got really big on TikTok over the pandemic. We're hearing these songs be used by younger people who have no prior experience to MGMT. You have that coupled with the nostalgia resurgence that their earlier records have. We saw MGMT featured in the movie Saltburn, for example. They're having this re-appreciation in the public consciousness. This next record that's about to come out is going to lean in, I think, to more of their previous style, less synth pop, and more of what they were doing on Congratulations, for example, these sweeping earthy, rocky songs. This album's going to be really interesting because they've gotten a lot of new popularity. I think it's going to make some waves.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a recently released single from MGMT's forthcoming album Loss of Life. This is called Bubblegum Dog.

[MUSIC - MGMT: Bubblegum Dog]

Bubblegum dog, tell me what the truth is.

Isn't this bed a log? Doesn't that confuse things?

Shouldn't I run? Isn't that the white man?

None of this seems like fun but maybe that's the point, man.

For years, I've strung you along.

Afraid of the bubblegum dog.

And it's finally catching up with me.

I hope it's a false alarm.

But the pain of the bubblegum dog.

It's finally catching up with me.

Who would believe I saw?

Alison Stewart: MGMT with Bubblegum Dog. Let's take some calls. Deanna is calling from Pleasantville, New York. Hi, Deanna. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Deanna: Hi. I just wanted to say about music is I got tickets for the Taylor Swift Eras Tour in November. I know it's basic, but I love Taylor Swift so much and I'm excited for her new rerecording, the two new albums.

Alison Stewart: You know what? Judgment-free zone when it comes to music on this show. You like what you like. You want to go to see what you want to go see. Deanna, no need to apologize. Thank you for calling in. I got a text, "Crosses at Hammerstein Ballroom in February. Chino Moreno, Deftones, and Shaun Lopez, far great dark wave dream pop." It sounds like our listeners have some plans.

If you've got plans, music you want to see coming up, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can shout out a show you're planning to go see, maybe an album you're really excited it's coming out this year, an artist you really, really want to give props to as new music coming out. We'd love to hear about it. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can join us on air like Deanna did, or you can text us at that number. My guest is Reanna Cruz.

They're a producer for Switched On Pop, the podcast from Vulture. All right. Let's go to Khruangbin. Khruangbin seems to be limiting collaborators on this new album. How do you expect that that will impact it?

Reanna Cruz: I really like Khruangbin's music, I have for a long time. I feel like when you subtract collaborators from a record, I think it represents a turn back to basics. The singles from this record so far, what I've heard so far, it's been very paired back when it comes to Khruangbin. They've had a massive success over the past few years. They've blown up. They're playing sub-headlining festivals. I think this record is going to represent them going back to their roots.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear a track from Khruangbin's album A la Sala. This is A Love International.

[MUSIC - Khruangbin: A Love International]

Alison Stewart: That is a good vibe, Reanna.

Reanna Cruz: Oh, yes. I love their music. It's very chill. It's very vibey. It's a good driving music. I learned to drive this year. I've been playing a lot of them on long drives and stuff like that.

Alison Stewart: You just learned to drive this year?

Reanna Cruz: I learned to drive in 2023. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: There's a story there.

Reanna Cruz: Absolutely

Alison Stewart: Offline.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: We got a text, "The Smile: Wall of Eyes." That's getting really good reviews. Tanlines just dropped a new album today. Let's talk about Adrianne Lenker. She's from Big Thief.

Reanna Cruz: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What's different about her work as a solo artist versus when she's performing as part of a trio?

Reanna Cruz: Big Thief is very interesting, very critically acclaimed. They're doing a blend of indie and country, especially on this last record, Dragon New Warm Mountain I Believe in You. Adrianne Lenker's solo work in comparison is more scaled back. She's not with the other members. It's just her and her songs tend to skew more country. The songs are sadder in a way. They're more personal. They're more intimate. I think we could see that on the latest two singles from this new record.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to one. This is Sadness As A Gift.

[MUSIC - Adrianne Lenker: Sadness As A Gift]

You and I both know there is nothing more to say.

Chances shutter shining eyes and turn to face away, leaning on the window sill.

You could write me someday and I think you will.

We could see the sadness as a gift and still feel too heavy to hold.

Snow falling try to keep from calling.

Watch the spring turn to winter.

Reanna Cruz: I got a text that says, "I'm excited for a new band I found out called Middle Kids and their new album coming out soon. I'm very excited to take my tween to her first big show, Melanie Martinez, since I wasn't as lucky as your caller to get Tay-Tay's Era Tour tickets." My friend manages Melanie Martinez. She's awesome. You guys are going to have an amazing time. I got a text that says, "Madonna, I just saw her Celebration Tour in December and again last night and she's the indisputable QUEEN-" all capitals, "-trailblazer, gritty old school New York City, an iconic career. It's amazing to see her celebrate over 40 years of music, culture, and style."

That is from Melissa from Staten Island. Melissa, thanks for texting in. Let's get something else that's on your list, Reanna. Faye Webster's Undressed At The Symphony. She released an album when she was 16. Was it an EP?

Reanna Cruz: Wow. I did not know that. That's pretty awesome.

Alison Stewart: Yes, I think it was self-released.

Reanna Cruz: Yes. Run and Tell, I believe, right?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Reanna Cruz: She is so creative. She's from Atlanta. Her music features a lot of really interesting instruments. She has a lot of pedal steel in her work. This album that's coming up, Undressed At The Symphony, she has a single out already with Lil Yachty which I think is really fascinating, But Not Kiss. One of her big singles from the past few years is also going to be on this record. I think it's going to be her big-ticket record.

I feel like she has really gotten a lot of critical acclaim and listeners from I Know I'm Funny Haha, which came out in 2021. I think this record is just going to, again, continue her upward trajectory. It's really exciting. Lego Ring is such a fascinating song. I'm excited to hear more.

Alison Stewart: Featuring her childhood friend, Lil Yachty.

Reanna Cruz: Yes, her middle school bestie, Lil Yachty.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's hear Faye Webster.

[MUSIC - Faye Webster: Lego Ring]

I want a Lego ring

It's a mood ring

It'll pick for me

I want a Lego ring

I wanna kiss it when I go to sleep

I know what I like

I know what I want

But you know I kinda need

I know what I like

I know what I want

But you know I kinda need

Alison Stewart: That's Faye Webster with Lego Ring. Let's talk to Jonas, calling in from Park Slope. Hi Jonas.

Jonas Abney: Hey, Alison. This is Jonas Abney in Park Slope and I'm thoroughly excited to see the Pixies. They're coming to Kings Theater on I think it's June 6th. I've been waiting to see them for a long time. I put one of those little touts in the band's in town. I felt the ground rumble and then suddenly I got a text from them and they were like, "Oh, Pixies are coming to town, but the tickets don't go on sale until January 26th." Now I'm giving it away because somebody might get my seat, but I want to contribute to the net good in the world so I'm putting it out there. Alison, la, la, love you. Don't say maybe. Anyway, that's one of my favorite Pixie lines. All right. Jonas, Park Slope.

Alison Stewart: Peace out Jonas. Thanks for the serenade by the way. Also got, "Seeing Foo Fighters in May in North Carolina and again in July at City Field. They aren't new or independent but, "Yay." This brings us to some names that people know on your list, Reanna. Reanna Cruz [unintelligible 00:31:05] a producer for Switched on Pop, the podcast. Ariana Grande announced the release of her seventh studio album, Eternal Sunshine. It's supposed to come out on March 8th. Do you have any sense of what this album's going to be like?

Reanna Cruz: Absolutely not. I think the lead single, Yes, And, only confuses me further because the previous albums Ariana has done have seen her lean more away from pop into R&B. This record is poised to be more poppy but in a '90s pop way where Yes, And is essentially Madonna's Vogue update and it's very house-oriented in the same vein as Beyonce's Renaissance. Maybe that's the vibe that we're going to see on her next record, I don't know. I'm excited either way.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear, Yes, And from Ariana Grande.

[MUSIC - Ariana Grande: Yes, And]

In case you haven't noticed

Well, everybody's tired

And healin' from somebody

Or somethin' we don't see just right

Boy, come on, put your lipstick on (No one can tell you nothin')

Come on and walk this way through the fire (Don't care what's on their mind)

And if you find yourself in a dark situation

Just turn on your light and be like

"Yes, and?"

Say that shit with your chest, and

Be your own fuckin' best friend

Say that shit with your chest

Keep moving like, "What's next?"

"Yes, and?"

Alison Stewart: I feel like I'm in a spin class already.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's see, we've got a text. "Pan Arcadia, a band from Brooklyn headlighting at Bowery Ballroom February 2nd. This is an emerging band that everyone should discover. Billy Strings and Chris Thile at the Philharmonic on February 1st." Also, have an Irish band. I don't know if it's OXN. Do you say OXN or OXN. Monkey Gone to Heaven, The Idol, someone else's texted in. So many great suggestions. I want to go out on one final release. Kali UChis' new album Orquídeas, debuted at number one on Billboard's Top Latin Albums chart. Tell us a bit more what we need to know.

Reanna: Yes. This record is Kali UChis' second Spanish language album. She released Sin Miedo a few years ago. That record still has songs that you hear on the radio. Telepatia, Latin, and Hip Hop radio are still playing it. This record, Orquídeas, is more Spanish language music and it's really incredible. It's my favorite release of the year so far, which I know we're in January, but still. It focuses on Latin music in a way that her previous works haven't. It's a record that's very similar to Rosalia's Motomami or Bad Bunny's Un Verano Sin Ti in the way that the record captures all the sounds of the Latin diaspora.

We have salsa on it. We have merengue. We have dembow. We have reggaeton. It's taking all of these elements and putting them together on one album. There's 14 tracks on it and you're going to hear everything from merengue, like I said, to Amapiano, which is a South African genre. Lots of really interesting stuff going on there and I really love this album.

Alison Stewart: Reanna Cruz there, a producer for the podcast, Switched On Pop. Thanks for walking us through some new releases.

Reanna: Absolutely. Happy to be here.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on Kali Uchis.

[MUSIC - Kali Uchis: Igual Que Un Ángel]

 

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