A. President this is a series of interviews with experts on Asian affairs designed to strengthen our understanding of Asian people and ideas. Your host on this transcribed series is the noted author on the ward winning broadcaster Lee Graham. Here now is Mrs. Graham. Today we're going to talk about Burma and broaden that really and talk about mainland China its relations with them and vice versa and how other countries in Asia feel about mainland China these days. We speak of Burma because our guest on this program is a distinguished women whose name is chill out there like to tell you a little bit about doctors that. He is professor of Asian studies at the University of Windsor in Ontario Canada. Formerly he was a professor of history at the University of Rangoon and he's been a professor of history at Yale. But as the threat is here for a given period of time I find that out as we go on now and I think he will tell you some things which you might not be aware of not only about his country of Burma but about how the Burman attitude may be changing towards China and why this is so doctors that are you hear of a stipulated amount of time. I mean you have an assignment covering so many years in an area where you know. Yes well I have a passport that is valid for five years so I suppose that limits me to five. Is it hard to renew passports like that. Well let's put it this way it's not so new. It's given what on the basis of an appointment to a university. It's passports normally given out and I missed some of these days on the basis of sort of employment doesn't have to be a university. I speaking of this it is going to water or people leaving Burma. I think that has been extended is no reason out of them covering what three to five days for us is about and a lot of it is much more possible jealousy to get into power these days. It was some years ago would you say that the trend has been towards less friendliness on the part of the Burmese government with mainland China and increased friendliness towards the west. That would not be substantially true because the basic fundamental political policy is that I would like to be friendly with Bakley every country that I exist in especially with a neatness and I have sought out on the same level of tenderness and all the great powers of whose various policies and actions would impinge I that once. Almost a conference on our future and our present who robbed them as neighbors. We have quite a lot of them. We have East Pakistan we have and we had Tibet of course at one time to it was a separate country and we have China and provinces of Sichuan. Then we have Laos and then we have Thailand. I understand and of course you know more about this than almost anyone I would speak about. I speak about this but I was under the impression that Burma was joining shall we say the mainstream that Burma was a coming out more in its feelings of a fellowship with other Asian nations that it was not attempting to go it alone as much as it had in the past. Well they are perhaps. Different facets to this impression and thankfully I think the truth would be somewhat like this at the time we take over the government of Burma by this present group and by now I just felt that the Van Meter where being led to strain by various facets of the West didn't well it's called a chat. She thought that's enough for desirable entertainment literature. Perhaps in the exposed to certain standards of expectation for worldly goods which could only be satisfied by recourse to certain. I'm desired of a degree of corruption which would get them to meet you who have driven me suicide about me puritan attitude by the defensive attitude and since the decision was taken that the House would should be put into on them so that it would be better able to have hopes of survival in the changing web site that the Burmese should withdraw from such contaminating influences. That which is perhaps not the right word but nevertheless. And so we withdrew for a while and but there was never any question that about me as individuals in their society. Whenever they were exposed to that from an even American stand they think they're very happy to meet these people curious about them and very proud and pleased to tell about themselves. But in the period of probation of the prepare to withdraw has more or less ended I think and they have been that plants do that reopen the bunnies and do the outside and that very recently because this is taken from the sheep of the new rules which allow the problem is becoming much more easily than the way people do well. Didn't it happen in June 1967. On the face of it that the Burmese government the Cambodian government India Indonesia and at least those four got together in a new power arrangement. Wasn't there the feeling that they somehow needed to support one another because wanted to or maybe all felt threatened by mainland China. Wouldn't this somewhat indicate a reason for a return to fellowship if not with the West at least with other Asian nations. I don't think there was any form of getting together. It would not have been I think possible to think of anybody's government these days do and do publicly and then do a formal arrangement some proposals to make a common standard in Chinese because there's a very basic pragmatism about leadership these days and I think the Amal is right about it. Any degree of involvement I need to PR and it's a deviation from PR stunt self benevolent neuter them do it. He who I would immediately Gayla a heightening of Chinese pages which would never really be countered by any corresponding degree of outside aid and support. It would just not be worth the candle for the outward to shore up the band. What do you mean by Chinese pressures. Well if you look at the long boundary that China has and you look at some of the people who live in Burma of Chinese descent the amount of indirect pressure in the form of subsidising being arming and generally instigating dissident groups to grow the defenses capacities of enemies within daily immediately channeling off the very scarce CEP less resources that we haven't done it so many skilled Besen then and dime into holding. This additional pressure pressure the most naked sense of the word I would say. And so this was I think the basic attitude and now I think perhaps it was more a wishful theory that these countries should get together have got together and solve the benes of concern we have meta new public announcements and neither have we made any public at many festivals and so any desire to join any particular block even to defend ourselves from your relationship with China is has changed to some extent I don't want to you know press this question and have you make an answer which you don't feel free to give but I think that there has been perhaps an amount of disillusionment disenchantment certainly in AZ experience that with China I don't think the very leadership has been that disillusioned in the sense that we've never really believed that. The Chinese had nothing but loving kindness to anyone it is one of the basic principles of political belief in Burma that no nation loves any other nation. You might find it convenient to get on with other nations the only nation that loves the Burmese out of a piece of sensible most sensible premise on which to base one's national However there's been no disillusionment. But there has been a change I think you referred to the change that would perhaps could be dated from about 1967 when the repercussions of the Great Cultural Revolution started to beating down Burma showed that they had been and there was a change there. But then there's since been another change. Are we talking don't produce. So what is the first and what was the second the first change was not really the fault of the internal I suppose that can balance and that the Chinese Foreign Service and diplomatic service and its bureaucracy were going through and under the pleasures and impact of the Cultural Revolution and picking itself a certain measures were taken that took form in the sense of rather. Senseless you know the foolish displays and manifestations are great and you logical people to do and see pro-Chinese forever and it took the form of little nazi can badges and the red booklets which we have got our own bad Israel one of our own in the schools where a large proportion of the students were Chinese are of Chinese descent. Now the Emmy's government had in accordance with its basic policy of problem of mutualism amongst all the other nations like with all the other nations that prohibited the flying of any flanks. You know that we had an American missionary schools and British missionaries goods we had Indian community sponsored schools and we had forbidden the flying of Indian plays American flags or British flags and or Russian flags for that matter and we ought to have preferred to be wearing by the school children on any phone baguettes which were not officially sanctioned and so when these characters in the Chinese school started behaving rather indiscreetly the government began to take on all that BS chi to maintain its policy of not allowing any such thing. But these people felt that they had to go on nevertheless. And so this government of course is dependent on almost 100 percent acquaintance in its policies and actions to do something for the country. This is I think what they believe they need all the time and the money and the men to work on that sort of constructive things like building roads and hospitals and schools and factories and doing that such in agriculture and so it was on that basis of the government is going into it felt that it could not afford any challenge it had faced three of the challenges in this last seven years and in that come not very satisfactory out of these challenges and this was another sort of challenge. It was Chinese in one sense in that the original impulse of dissidents emanated from Chinese Cultural Revolution but essentially it was you know challenge how much of a challenge could that have been if people are killed and or schoolchildren and their wearing buttons and waving flags and carrying books. Yeah can the government consider that its huge challenge or is it that it was a serious challenge and this was just a more trivial manifestation of it. Well that because it's open to different interpretations and points of view. But I would agree. That means this sort of challenge is taking shape in the form of school demonstrations and wearing a badge it should have been taken very lightly and probably could have been ignored but as I say these sort of governments in Southeast Asia who feel that they have a job of work to do just cannot afford or they feel that they cannot afford any kind of challenge. The beginnings of challenge are easy and so very seriously and that they would crack down on it when you see a form of government that has today achieving its full independence in 1948. Well it is well let us put it this way the Burmese government and the civilians have stability of a certain kind the sense that we had just two prime ministers in that period immediately after independence. One who stayed on for a long time then you're deaf or a wire as a man another man who replaced him for a year and then he came back to power and then getting new and has been one of the prime minister. So in that sense there has been a reasonable amount of continuing in the governmental patterns and little patterns of administration. But this present government is a reformist government and I see it has a certain amount of impatience with the Democratic gumbo of achievement. To put it mildly Would you explain that since you are putting it mildly I'm not sure I understand the Democratic debate. Given it goes is that things which I enjoy in the Constitution as being imperative necessity self keep ment something think it should be done and the stated goal is enough confusion. Thankfully promises a certain degree of socialization. And this was not achieved because the democratic form of government had to compromise. Probably the compromise went on a little too long and was probably becoming a little suspect. And you know forms of compromise normally mean in some parts of the world some money going into someone's pockets. And so this is widely suspected and widely condemned and of course the enemy. I guess if I you will give me the time one month. Take that out you have in your culture system a certain immediate reactions to the new insistent semantic connotation for government there is almost a reflex rejection of such forms of government are not necessary. Well I'm glad to get ahead because the army is is to put it very badly the army is not be class ridden rigid Prussian type of army leadership. The present Army leadership and specially the general where the peers equally amongst the very top groups are on the civilian resistance movement against the British and it gets in Japanese and they happen to have that particular bent of mind which required rigorous action concerted action and discipline to satisfy their desires and all their personalities in line. And so I went to uniform but I remained and have remained very much a part of the whole complex of nationalist efforts in our country. They have just as good a record as any other thing discipline does not necessarily mean tyranny and firmness does not necessarily mean dictatorship. If a government requires a certain approach because of its background and its problems I mean who is anyone to say that this is bad. I just think that would be a sweeping indictment for no good reason. Well I'm glad you feel that because certainly speaking I suppose for the vast majority of my people that they find really nothing intrinsically wrong with that. And. At the moment it has not been as effective as it would wish to be but they are really trying to reorganize the whole basis of our society. I think many people would prefer that kind of stability which doesn't seem to be too harmful or harmful at all. But for that to an icky way in which nothing is accomplished. Yes speaking specifically from the point of view of basic American interests in that particular corner of the world the kind of stability which is. A human humane human is kind of stability in many many I suppose essential respects that is is something that is of advantage to them. I think basic American objectives and American objectives I think it may have great advantages to the people living in a country who haven't but this one life would like to live it with a certain amount of order and a certain amount of future to look forward to. Well that's exactly that is the point. What this government is trying to do is to provide hopes of a better future for the coming generation. Meet objectives of course over the last 10 years has been to eradicate some of the inequalities of the society and certain degree of exploitation. Perhaps we are. Somewhat obsessed with the idea. Thank you for exploitation but it's a very sound idea and very humane and there is nothing contradictory to the basic religious to get inside. Do you have a Buddhist human values. Wouldn't you say that. In General Ne Win might be compared a bit to General Suharto of Indonesia an army man who has the good of this country at heart. Taken over in a certain way it is apparently anti-communist but is nevertheless socialistic in his point of view and is attempting to do this and see a job for his country. If you do any parallels between them. Well from the point of view of the various aspects of the hotter that you mention you are perfectly right. It would be a very valid comparison between so hard to and generally win. But I would think that generally when it's not committed to a much more subtle ideological transformation of the Burmese people as general so hard to President Rouhani is feeling is we're still essentially I think in the humanoid region to remain in their attitude to it's a country man. But I think it is. Couple of steps ahead but it did come to mind. They have certain qualities in common. Professor A final question when you say that your neighbors all except communist China. Feel a certain apprehension about China which they may not reflect openly because they don't want any disturbance any political disturbance. But one which may change the diplomatic behavior. As long as the Burmese are concerned just made a statement that he would be willing to forget what had happened in a corporate of his neighbors especially China. So this is a very sensible point of view that is being expressed and perhaps if the Burmese were to be able to show to the Chinese that their that their neighbors are willing to leave China alone and not allow themselves to be uses bases for China's enemies or people who consider considers to be enemies then the Chinese will one day break down this suspicion which they are to themselves. Do you feel that it's a fear on their part which is the fear on the part of this it just seems to be a mutual and continuing security or maybe the breakthrough point to break this cycle of frustration. Well that certainly would be the better part of wisdom if that could be done. I thank you very much for coming here because there is a country as I understand it of great beauty splendid culture much wisdom and perhaps this is the closest many of us will come to visiting it through meeting you on this program. Is Burma open to tourism very much these days. Yes yes you can go and you're welcome there you know it is a land of the pagodas I understand. Among feathers amongst other three things I thank you for being here and I'd like to say that I danced on this program in Dokic that doctor that is professor of Asian studies at the University of wind not area which is in Canada and this is Lee Graham saying goodbye and always asking you to remember that we feel that all the east is east and west is west. The time has certainly come for the twain to meet. That concludes tonight's edition of the Asia Society presents with league radio listener ease comes to you through the cooperation of the Asia Society. If you would like to comment on tonight's program or would like further information about the society and how you can participate in its many interesting activities please write to Mrs. Graham by WNYC New York City 100 0 7. I make a note to join us again next week at this time for another edition of The Asia self-id presents. This is the national educational radio network.