Darializa Avila-Chevalier on Mamdani, ICE and the NYPD

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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to Who's Running This Place? A new politics show coming to you every Thursday at this time now through the election. I'm Brigid Bergin, your host and senior politics reporter here at WNYC.

On today's show, we're talking about immigration and how the presence of Immigration and Customs Enforcement in our city and state may be informing your thinking in this election season. My guest is someone who got firsthand experience with this issue. She was shoved to the ground by an NYPD officer last week during a protest. Demonstrators had gathered in Marble Hill after ICE shot a Dominican man as he allegedly drove toward them. The man's five-year-old son was in the backseat of the car when the agents opened fire.

Darializa Avila Chevalier is the Democratic nominee for the 13th congressional district, which includes Marble Hill, the rest of Upper Manhattan, and part of the Bronx. Darializa, presumptive Congressmember, welcome to Who's Running This Place?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Thanks so much for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, help us report this story. Are you a Marble Hill resident, and did you witness what happened last Thursday when ICE shot Oscar Belgal? How does the incident make you think about public safety? Perhaps you live somewhere else in the city where ICE has been on the ground. What are you seeing in your community, and are ICE operations affecting your vote in the upcoming election? Call us. Tell us your experience. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call and text that number.

Darializa, I want to start with that episode. Every episode we start by asking people, "Who's running this place?" How do you answer that question, given what happened just a week ago?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I have a lot of faith in so many of the city officials and future colleagues of mine that were really showing up for our community. I think there is a lot of promise there that we'll be able to actually get answers for our communities about what happened on Thursday. I also have serious questions and concerns about what happened on Thursday. I have concerns around the NYPD's conduct on that day. I obviously am just shocked and find so abhorrent the way that ICE was allowed to come into our community in that way.

I think the Trump administration needs to be held to account in the way that it has used this agency as its cudgel for fascism. I've been very clear from the very beginning that this is an agency that should not exist, that we need to abolish ICE. The thing about Congress is that it has the ability to do that. It has the power of the purse here to be able to completely defund it and make sure that no institution like it ever exists again.

Brigid Bergin: Let's talk a little bit more about your experience that day. How did you first learn about that shooting? Can you walk listeners through what that experience of the day was like?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Yes. I was at a community meeting in Harlem, and my phone just began buzzing, and it was just going nonstop, and so I stepped away, I answered, and that was how I learned about the shooting. We made our way up to Marble Hill. When I got there, there were other electeds who had already gathered and were starting to ask questions of the police, but they weren't receiving many answers. I wasn't receiving many answers. We asked repeatedly things like, "Do we know where the child is? Do we know what led to this? What was happening? Who was in charge of the crime scene?"

At that point, I asked that question of who was in charge of the crime scene to the NYPD, and they told me that the NYPD was. I asked whether it was a crime scene because of the crash or because of the shooting. Because what follows is that if you're investigating a crash, you would apprehend the driver, and if you're investigating a shooting, you would apprehend the shooter. To my knowledge, to this day, a shooter has not been apprehended there, even though we know that it was an ICE agent.

Just seeing the presence of ICE and HSI throughout the crime scene, walking up and down the crime scene, walking across the community, and at many points, even going door to door, trying to talk to folks in Marble Hill, and Senator Gustavo Rivera and I had to go behind them to let folks know that they were under no obligation to talk to them. There were so many moments there where it really felt as though NYPD was not trying to really cooperate with the elected officials who were just trying to get answers for their community, whether it was just the standing around that was happening or the lack of answers that were being provided.

At a certain point, we had gathered for a press conference, and I remember the public advocate, Jumaane Williams, saying, tomorrow the victim of this horrendous shooting would be criminalized. Those words just really stuck with me because they were so true, that he would be painted as a monster, as somebody who was in any way deserving of this type of violence. As we made our way over to the hospital where we learned that ICE was trying to take Oscar Belgal into custody, we saw a growing police presence. There, what I saw was NYPD engaging in escalatory behavior against protesters who were simply trying to express their rightful outrage.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, if you're just joining us, this is Who Runs This Place? I'm Brigid Bergin, and my guest is Darializa Avila Chevalier, the Democratic nominee for the 13th congressional district. We're talking about immigration in the midterms and what happened on the ground in Marble Hill last week. We want to hear from you. What does your thoughts about immigration do for your voting in this upcoming election? How are you responding to what you saw, and how are you feeling about public safety in your community and ICE in your community after what happened last week?

What questions do you still have, and do you want elected officials, future elected officials, to get answers to on your behalf? The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can call and text that number. When you joined those protests, the videos that were captured showed this really tumultuous scene. As I mentioned, at one point, you were shoved to the ground. Tell us what it was like to be in the middle of that. What did you feel like your role was in that moment?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: In these types of contexts, I've always approached it from a de-escalatory perspective. At the end of the day, I just want people to be able to go home safely, including Oscar. I want him to be able to go back to his family. To me, it was just shocking to see the way that police were really escalating. They were using barricades and pushing them onto people. They were engaging in tug-of-wars.

At the point where I was shoved, I was actually trying to de-escalate. I was trying to bring the temperature down so that there could be safety for everyone there. Actually, if I'm remembering correctly, it was at a point where I had seen a woman fall to the ground, feet just all over her-- near her head. I believe a police officer who's wearing a white shirt fall on top of her because he also lost his balance. As I was reaching to help them, that's when I got shoved. To know that it was actually the Community Affairs Unit that engaged in that, it really raises so many questions to me about what NYPD's presence there was actually facilitating.

At a certain point, we know that NYPD was placing the barricades and that they had facilitated ICE's exit with Oscar. That raised a lot of concerns for me about whether or not it was actually enforcing the sanctuary policies that the city is proud to have passed. Whether it was undermining them in spirit or to the letter, I think it is an egregious violation of that policy and the things that New Yorkers stand for.

When I was at the scene of the incident, when I was talking to folks who had seen what had happened, who were there, they were all deeply traumatized. Like this happened to Oscar. Yes, but it happened to the entire community. So many people. There were children who were sticking their heads out of the window, also yelling to ask questions of what had happened, demanding answers.

Brigid Bergin: It was right when school got out.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: It was right when school got out, and Oscar himself was picking up his child from school. Any parent who is in a position where they are in the driver's seat, their child is in the backseat, and they see masked men approaching their car and brandishing weapons, any parent would do anything to get their child out of that situation. I think the same is true for all the folks who witnessed it. They didn't even know what they were witnessing. They were traumatized. The fact that there were ICE agents going around brandishing weapons after the fact to threaten folks and have them stay clear of the area just adds further trauma to the entire community.

Brigid Bergin: A listener texts, "For the most shocking part of the Marble incident is that one of the ICE agents was walking around with a long gun. Why is a rifle needed in New York City?"

Darializa Avila Chevalier: That's a great question. I don't think it is. I think the point is that none of this is necessary. There is no world in which it makes sense to have an agency shoot at a man in his car with his five-year-old child in it, in a crowded street as they're dressed as construction workers and masked men. I think it really just highlights that this has nothing to do about public safety. This has everything to do with state-sanctioned terror. We need to be really clear about that.

Brigid Bergin: You won a hotly contested Democratic primary last June against Representative Adriano Espaillat. Mayor Mamdani gave you a full-throated endorsement, appeared on national television with you, but you have split with him on Police Commissioner Jessica Tisch. Why do you think she should step down?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: All of the things that I witnessed with NYPD's behavior, whether that was their inaction, or, for lack of a better word, complicity, while I was at the scene of the incident, the fact that they were escalating against protesters, and then the fact that she, rather than condemn the actions of ICE and acknowledge that there needs to be a serious investigation into NYPD's behavior, she then proceeded to vilify the victim of the shooting. Which, to me, went right back to what the public advocate, Jumaane Williams, said, that the next morning he would be vilified.

It was not the next morning, it was that very evening. It was coming from the police commissioner herself. She was really pushing forward a narrative that the Trump administration itself has been pushing.

Brigid Bergin: When you say vilified in this case, you're talking about the fact that she revealed the criminal charges he's faced in the past and ones that were still pending?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Right. Rather than acknowledging that there is no context under which this is acceptable, she used the opportunity to simply talk about his prior contact with the police.

Brigid Bergin: I have a listener who has called in who I think wants to push back in terms of how we're talking about this. Let's go to Avik in Manhattan. Avik, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling Who's Running This Place?

Avik: Thank you very much for having me. If I may, I absolutely want to push against it, because it's amazing to me how, when the congresswoman wants to present a picture, she's not doing a balance. She may accuse our commissioner to say what she said, but you're presenting-- anybody that listens to you, congresswoman, you present such a beautiful picture, but let me give you a different angle. The fact this guy entered this country illegal is very important. The fact that this guy, he knew there is a child in the car, decided to run away from the police, this is also a factor.

Doesn't justify shooting or not shooting. Regardless of everything else, if a police or ICE wants to arrest somebody because they're suspected, innocent until proven guilty, but they're a suspect, you do not run away and provoke every action. At least have the decency of presenting a balance. Oh, you want him to go back to his family, his own neighborhood are talking about him, his own record talks against him. I will take him as innocent until proven guilty. At least be honest about it, then I can listen to you with much more empathy.

Brigid Bergin: Avik, thank you so much for your call and for that perspective. I want to give Darializa an opportunity to respond.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think this question of innocent until proven guilty is exactly the point. They sought out to execute a man in front of his child. What recourse is there for any kind of procedure, any kind of due process, any kind of actual account for what he was accused of? Because at the end of the day, what we're talking about is an accusation. We're not talking about a conviction that warrants execution in front of anybody. To say, when you're approached by law enforcement, you have to follow their orders, how could the man have known that that was law enforcement when they were wearing construction vests and masks?

That's the point, is that this is not law enforcement in the way that we think about it. This is a rogue militia that is acting outside of any sense that anybody would be able to perceive as a law enforcement agency. This is a huge public safety issue. If you want law enforcement to be able to engage in the proper order, they need to be able to identify themselves as law enforcement before brandishing weapons at a car where there is a child. At the end of the day, this man is a father, he was doing what fathers do, picking up their children from school. Why is that somehow an issue? I don't understand why anyone would expect-- Like, if he didn't pick up his child from school, we'd say, "Why is he an absentee father?"

The idea that there is any justification for this is so deeply dehumanizing to Oscar and anybody who's in his position. The fact remains that we have a criminal system that addresses any concerns we might have about someone's alleged criminal activity. This was not the criminal system that was engaging in an apprehension. This was an agency from the Department of Homeland Security that handles the civil issue of immigration. This is a civil matter, and there's no reason why it should be treated as a criminal matter.

Brigid Bergin: Let's get back to the criminal question of it and also the NYPD question of it all. Mayor Mamdani was asked on Monday about Commissioner Tisch. She said he is standing with her. This is what he said when asked whether he would fire Commissioner Tisch on Monday.

Mayor Zohran Mamdani: Jessica Tisch is the police commissioner. I have no plans to change that. The reason that I made the decision to have Jessica Tisch as the police commissioner was because of her record of uprooting corruption from the upper echelons of the NYPD while lowering crime across our city. Over the last 10 months that we've worked together, we have delivered the lowest recorded number of murders in our city's history. The lowest recorded number of shootings as well as shooting victims.

Brigid Bergin: How do you respond to that?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I made it very clear that I think it is on Jessica Tisch to step down. I think she is the one who did not meet the moment. I think that it is important that we have meaningful accountability. I also think the mayor and I see eye to eye on most of this. He is already putting funds towards accountability, mechanisms of accountability to NYPD. He's already said that there's going to be a robust investigation into what happened in the 24 hours after the shooting. He's also said that he is working to disband the SRG. I think there is so much more that we actually align with that he has shown a commitment to moving forward on. Yes, I think that's what matters.

Brigid Bergin: That sounds like the current New York Post cover that says that you and the mayor are at odds on this. Any response to that particular framing?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I don't take much of what the New York Post says seriously, if anything at all. In fact, in the past, well before running, I had a New York Post reporter tell me that she was willing to fabricate if I wasn't willing to give her a quote. I really don't take anything that The Post says. In fact, when the mayor and I spoke about the article after it came out, we were cracking jokes about the ridiculousness of the article itself.

Brigid Bergin: You've spoken to the mayor since that article and since the incident last week?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: The mayor and I have a strong relationship. We do check in, we talk. Yes. There is nothing true about that New York Post article. I think we have a great relationship. It's going to take quite a lot for things to change, and I'm grateful for the relationship that we have.

Brigid Bergin: You're both part of the Democratic Socialists of America, and that's his political home, and that movement has been so instrumental for both of you for your political success and your rise. It was striking last week when the city's chapter of DSA put out a statement that similarly said that Commissioner Tisch should be removed. We spoke with co-chair Grace Mauser, who said this.

Grace Mauser: If Commissioner Tisch was kept on because she could commit to Zohran's vision of an NYPD that did not have an SRG that did not use aggressive and violent protest repression tactics, and that did not collaborate with ICE, then now's the time for her to show that. She's had 10 months. We've tried to give space, but we would like to see results at this point.

Brigid Bergin: Mauser is referencing what you also mentioned, the controversial Strategic Response Group, or SRG, which as you had said, the mayor has said he wants to disband, but has not yet. There is some critique to the left of the mayor. You are to the left of the mayor, that some of his criminal justice reforms have maybe dropped on his priority list. Some people even suggesting that he's backed away from them. Do you feel that? How important do you think it is for there to be change soon within the NYPD?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think Grace is correct on this in that we really just want to see the substantive change. The actual day-to-day lives of people be positively impacted in this regard. That's what's most important to me. I trust that the mayor is making calculations around how to do that on a day-to-day basis in a way that's in the best interests of New Yorkers. Yes, I think this past week we've seen a reaffirmed commitment to making moves on that. Whether that is putting more funds towards police accountability, whether that's reaffirming a vision of abolishing ICE. In New York, that really is committed to that.

Or whether it is the investigations of what happened on Thursday, making sure that there is accountability for any missteps that were taken. I think at the end of the day, the most important thing is making sure that New Yorkers feel the impact of strong leadership in the city. Anything else, particularly the reporting from The Post, or I should say "reporting" from The Post is distraction. Is distraction from that. That is trying to take the attention of the public away from the things that actually matter, which is the substantive issues here of policy.

Brigid Bergin: We need to take a short break. More with Democratic and Democratic Socialist congressional candidate for the 13th congressional district, Darializa Avila Chevalier. Your calls coming up. Stick around.

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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to Who's Running This Place? I'm Brigid Bergin. Today we're talking immigration in the midterms with Democratic congressional candidate for the 13th congressional district, Darializa Avila Chevalier. I want to hear from you. How is immigration affecting your vote in the upcoming election? Call and tell us all about it. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-9692. Let's go to Eric in Mount Vernon. Eric, you're on WNYC.

Eric: Hi, Alison. Hi, Ms. Avila Chevalier. Thank you for taking my call, and thank you for focusing on this important subject today. I wanted to mention that I'm a senior teacher, 22 years of experience in New York City public schools, and I've been at a school in Marble Hill in the JFK building, the only international school that deals with overaged and undercredited kids. This directly affects our student body. Even as of last year, because of other administrative policies, we've seen a reduction from something like 85 freshmen in a year to down to something like 22.

This plays a part in the craziness of last week. We got like an email, and we had a meeting with our principal talking about how our students go out for lunch because they don't necessarily like the food in the American school system at their age. They usually walk right down to the 225th station, where the McDonald's is, the [unintelligible 00:23:11]. We had to have an emergency response. We got a food truck to come in behind the school to where it's more protected, and kids can have a private entrance and exit for that.

In addition, we've had-- this is not our first run-in. We had a student taken last May from 26 Federal Plaza during a routine immigration hearing. We have a broad volunteer network in the Riverdale area. Would you believe it? That very day, dozens of them were willing to walk individual students to and from lunch, to and from school, drive them. Even more surprisingly, perhaps, is that on Tuesday, for Indigenous Peoples Day, the first day back from school, after that, we have our yearly trip to the Museum of the American Indian. More than 98% of the students showed up.

I think one student was absent. I could not believe it after such possible fear or drama, or parents telling them maybe not to come to school on Tuesday, they were all there, and they were all excited to be part of the city and see a new part of it that they hadn't discovered before.

Brigid Bergin: Eric, thank you so much for that call and thank you for the work you do. We really appreciate it. I want to go to Elliot in Brick, New Jersey. Elliot, you're on WNYC.

Elliot: Thanks for taking my call. I just really quickly just wanted to explain to the people who ICE is and what we are dealing with and why. 26 years-- we did a warrant on a house. We came across people who had an immigration hold or a federal warrant. We would bring them to ICE. ICE would put them into the system. ICE would take control of them inside of the building, almost like corrections.

Now that they've been released onto the street, meaning ICE agents, you have three kinds. You have people that are scared to death because they don't have the proper training as we do in law enforcement, to go and do law enforcement tactics or laws. You have that person. Then you have the person that is on the other extreme who couldn't be a police officer, who landed a job in ICE, who's now been tasked with going out with a long gun or a handgun, who's out there just running amok and violating people's rights, unfortunately ending people's lives because they don't have the leadership to rein these people in. They're short on numbers.

They're allowing these people to just be rogue agents that don't have the proper training out there, and they're not police. They are people that were inside a building and told to go find their badges. If you see them out there, you see even their vest look like they haven't fit them in like three years. That's a reason why is because they have never been on the street. That's why--

Brigid Bergin: Elliot, I just want to jump in and ask you, because you're clearly talking as someone with some experience in this space. Just tell us a little bit about what your background is and how what you are seeing, you're viewing as someone slightly different than the rest of us who may be just seeing these people on the street.

Elliot: 26 years, I did homicide investigations for prosecutor's office. We were tasked going out and finding the bad guys. Unfortunately, sometimes we wouldn't find the guy we're looking for, but we would find people who had, again, immigration holds or federal warrants. We were tasked with bringing them to ICE, which is a building, a facility to hold them. All the ICE agents were never on the street. They were inside of the facility. We would bring them to them, they would log them in and then put them in the cell.

Now you have these same people that wanted nothing to do with being in law enforcement or couldn't be in law enforcement that are now on the streets of America with guns and badges and zero leadership, and they are violating people's rights because they don't have the training as a police officer. They don't have the leadership to tell them no, or they have leadership that are telling them to go ahead and do what they're doing. Right from the very beginning, I said, this is going to be a [inaudible 00:27:16] because we have people--

Brigid Bergin: Elliot, I'm sorry, I think we're losing your line a little bit, but I want to give Darializa a chance to respond to both of those callers. Some very interesting, informed perspectives from very different points of view.

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Yes. I think to the second caller and his point about the confusion that this creates, where people don't know what the distinction is between an NYPD officer and an ICE agent. Where they don't know the distinction between a law enforcement officer who is tasked with investigating criminal incidents and one who is there to apprehend people because they might look like an immigrant. That is a very dangerous precedent. It's one that really undermines public safety. It actually really makes it difficult for folks to feel that they can trust law enforcement in general. If we are serious about public safety, then we need to acknowledge the chaos that this creates.

This is, to his point, part of why it is so important that we abolish this agency. It is a rogue agency of folks who do not actually care about the law, do not care about public safety or keeping people safe, and it has nothing to do with actual incidents of criminal activity. When you think about, for example, the way we deal with folks who are citizens, who engage in criminal activity, they go through the criminal system, they are tried, and then they pay their debt to society. If that person is, for some reason, not a citizen or is born elsewhere, all of a sudden they have to face an additional level of scrutiny through ICE. That is in itself a violation of our Constitution on the basis of where someone was born.

Now we're adding this additional element of creating a public safety issue because anybody in that area in Marble Hill could have been seriously injured. Not to mention the fact that there is nothing that justifies allowing these rogue agents to be judge, jury, and executioner on an issue that no one even knows what caused.

Brigid Bergin: Let's get back to some of the politics of this. Because you were up for election to a federal position, lots of people are predicting the Democrats will take the House. How do you want to see the party go about immigration reform? In addition, I mean, you've clearly said that ICE should be disbanded, but what else needs to happen?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: We need to have an entire overhaul of our immigration system and make sure that it is one that actually guarantees dignity for immigrant communities, that creates pathways to citizenship. Representative Delia Ramirez actually just introduced her vision for community safety, and I think it's a really beautiful one. It's one that ensures that we have a just immigration system, that we dismantle the very functions of it that make it so hard for so many, that make no sense, that are actually making life more unsafe for so many people.

That is taking away things like ICE, abolishing it altogether, reinforcing the programs that do actually help our communities, like FEMA. Making sure that the process by which immigrants come into our country is one that allows them to be fully integrated into our society, which would not only promote public safety and dignity for the immigrants themselves, but dignity for the entire community.

To the first caller, I want to, first of all, thank you for that, because that is, I think, such a beautiful model of what the city actually is and what we value and how we value all of the people in our community. I will also say, New York 13 is a district that has some of the highest absenteeism in schools because parents are so terrified. They are terrified to be separated from their children. The fact that this happened right after school really underscores this. I think New Yorkers were resilient. We shouldn't have to be resilient. I think it really is a testament to just how wonderful we are as a community.

Brigid Bergin: I think we're pretty great also. If Democrats take control, there will be a lot of pressure on you to support Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries for Speaker of the House. Are you ready to do that?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: It's something that we're still talking about with our community, because I think this is a very important process. I think the process actually is just as important as the vote itself. I think it's a very big deal for the speakership to come to New York. I think it's a very big deal for the Democratic Party to take back control of the House. I need that to also manifest itself as real, meaningful change for working people across this country, for working people in New York.

For me, it really comes down to, are we going to have strong leadership that is going to really push for the things that working people across this country have been demanding for ages, whether that is abolishing ICE, Medicare for All, the Jon Lewis Voting Rights Act, making sure that we are fighting for universal childcare, investing our tax dollars and our babies here and not in bombs abroad, passing the Block the Bombs Act.

There's any number of things that working Americans have been very clear on. That I think is a unique opportunity for us to actually make strong headway on and would also really show that we are pushing back against the Trump administration's agenda. We have to show that we're going to fight them.

Brigid Bergin: It sounds like you're not ready to commit yet, but you're still in conversation. You mentioned the Trump administration. We have seen this administration take aggressive actions towards other congressional members who they consider political opponents. Just this week, Minnesota Representative Ilhan Omar's home in D.C. was searched by federal officials from the Department of Justice. Do you worry about being targeted?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think all of us do. He is somebody who has shown no limits to what he's willing to do to terrify our communities. I think the point here is that all of us have to just be a little braver, whether it's folks running for office or just your average person at the coffee shop. We're facing fascism at our door, and that means that all of us have to come together to fight back on this. As an organizer, I know very well that our power actually comes from people organizing and coming together to lay the groundwork for the political conditions that allow elected representatives to do the bold thing, to take the big swings and actually fight back effectively.

I think most Americans agree that the Trump administration has, with all of its corruption, with all of its cruelty, it has done nothing to actually benefit the working people of this country. We need to fight back. We need to fight back against the cruelty, the corruption, all of it, and use every tool at our disposal to do that.

Brigid Bergin: Just last week, Republican candidate for governor, Bruce Blakeman, held a rally with President Trump up in Syracuse, hoping to boost his turnout in the state. Governor Kathy Hochul is obviously far more moderate than you are, but do you support her reelection?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think we need to think about who's actually fighting for New Yorkers here, and it's not Blakeman, for sure. I think Hochul has shown that she is someone who is actually willing to push back on the Trump administration. I think it is deeply important that we have Democratic leadership that is fighting back, and I'm hoping that she is going to continue to do that and to work with folks who are to the left of her, like myself, and the mayor, and be willing to do that work of effectively fighting back.

Brigid Bergin: That sounds like a yes. My final question, I'm just curious, what are you learning about your own power? You're likely to be elected. You don't face a real strong challenger in your district, but how are you thinking about your power and representation in this moment, and how do you want to use it on behalf of your constituents?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: I think that for far too long we have had representatives in office who are unwilling to use the power of their office to actually fight for their communities because, I don't know, maybe they're afraid that they might not win their next reelection or whatever the case. I think the point of power, and the mayor has said this-- the point of power is to use it for the benefit of our communities. That is what I plan to do.

I've been thinking with my community, with folks who are also coming into Congress and across the country, about how do we punch above our weight and make sure that we can actually deliver for the working people of this country. To me, that has always been part of the work of organizing, and to bring people into that space, to bring the average person into the halls of power and say, this is not my power, this is our power, and have them be part of that process.

We've been thinking very long and hard about how we build our co-governance model, how we make sure that we are working alongside people who are currently in Congress and who are coming into Congress about the vision that we share so that we can close the gap between what is and where we're going.

Brigid Bergin: All right, I go to sneak in one little question because I had a listener reach out to me before the show, and she is one of your constituents, and she just wants to know what's the best way for constituents to reach you now through the transition going forward. Going forward, when you have an office set up, I think that'll be easier. If a constituent wants to reach out with an issue now, what's the best way to reach you?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Yes, I mean, there are a number of ways that you can reach out to us on our social media. Our handle is @DarializaforNY for both Twitter, or I guess X, and Instagram. You can also email us at info@Darializaforngress.com, and depending on what the issue is, we'll connect you to the appropriate person on our team.

Brigid Bergin: That's great. My guest has been Darializa Avila Chevalier, Democratic congressional candidate for the 13th congressional district. Darializa, thank you for joining me on Who's Running This Place?

Darializa Avila Chevalier: Thanks for having me.

Brigid Bergin: Coming up, we'll unpack what we heard with my panel from the WNYC newsroom and you after a short break. Stay tuned.

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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to Who's Running This Place? I'm Brigid Bergin. We were just hearing from congressional candidate Darializa Avila Chevalier. Now I want to hear from you. What about last Week's shooting of 28-year-old Oscar Belgal hit home for you? Did it change what you think about public safety in the city? What about the role of ICE on city streets? What about the use of force with a child in the car? What do you think about how the candidates for governor or other offices are talking about the issue of immigration and public safety ahead of the election?

The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. While those calls come in, I'm joined by WNYC and Gothamist colleagues Jimmy Vielkind and Arya Sundaram here in Manhattan and Jon Campbell in Albany. Jimmy, Arya, great to have you in studio.

Jimmy Vielkind: Happy to be here.

Arya Sundaram: Same here.

Brigid Bergin: Jon, thanks for joining from the Capital Region.

Jon Campbell: Happy to be here.

Brigid Bergin: I want to start with a caller. Let's go to Nick in Brooklyn. Nick, thanks for holding. Welcome to WNYC.

Nick: Hi. Thank you. This is a great and necessary discussion. I'm thinking that it's really important to continue to ask the question, why is ICE wearing masks and coming in hot with weapons and not identifying themselves and being this rogue force? The only conclusion that I keep coming up with is that the government is trying to stir up a backlash, a violent backlash that would happen just for self-protection.

Once that happens, then if it happens before the midterms, for example, a state of emergency can be called, and elections can be held off. I'm really worried that this is just a major step in total authoritarianism.

Brigid Bergin: Nick, thanks so much for your call and raising what I think is arguably a very frightening scenario. Jimmy, do you want to respond to that?

Jimmy Vielkind: Yes. Nick, thank you for making the point. I think there are three things to think about. ICE and federal law enforcement say that the masks are necessary because agents have been identified and doxxed. There have been some instances of that. To me, what's most striking is just how intimidating people look while they are unidentified and unidentifiable. What we've seen and heard in whispers and sometimes out loud from the Trump administration is that the goal of the immigration enforcement is to make it look bad and to have people have pause.

Then the third point I think that is worth making is that there were attempts to ban this, to require federal law enforcement agents to identify themselves publicly for the reasons you said, to have citizens know who is the law enforcement agent. They were struck down by federal courts, both in New York and other places in the country.

Brigid Bergin: Jimmy, thanks for that. Arya, welcome to the panel. Welcome to the show. You were in Marble Hill last week reporting this story. You cover immigration issues. What did you make of what you heard from likely Representative Darializa Avila Chavalier in that conversation?

Arya Sundaram: I think there are a couple things that stand out to me here. I mean, of course, there's certainly a split on the progressive end of the party in terms of how they would like to handle the issue of Commissioner Tisch here. Darializa is not the only member of the DSA that has called for the resignation and for Mayor Mamdani to remove Commissioner Tisch. I think it was interesting listening to her. She seemed to clearly be de-escalating the situation a little bit, saying that she maintains a really strong relationship with him.

Then just to step back for a moment. I think it's fascinating that, like we even are having this conversation about policing that stems from what happened last week. It was an immigration issue that, of course, a man was shot by ICE, but now we're having this conversation.

Brigid Bergin: You mentioned a civil immigration agency.

Arya Sundaram: Yes. It's sparked this whole lightning round conversation over what's the NYPD's role in all of this?

Brigid Bergin: Jon, Darializa is about as left-leaning as any mainstream congressional candidate you're going to find in this cycle. She has called for the abolition of prisons and abolishing deportations in any form. CNN reported earlier that she had deleted some old tweets about seizing private property and abolishing ICE. As someone with an upstate vantage point, how does that rhetoric play upstate? Is there any blowback to some of that, or is the issue contextualized differently depending on where you are?

Jon Campbell: It certainly is contextualized differently depending on where you are. The left-leaning side of the Democratic Party plays better in New York City than it certainly does in more conservative areas of upstate or even moderate areas in the New York City suburbs. You actually saw Quinnipiac University poll New York a few weeks ago, and they asked about the Democratic Socialists of America, "Do you have a favorable view, unfavorable view." Statewide, it was about 29% favorable, 43% unfavorable.

It does matter what part of the state you're in. That's why you do see Republican candidates use socialists like Mayor Mamdani, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, even Darializa now as a boogeyman in races against Democratic candidates, trying to tie them to those candidates in areas where Democratic socialism and left-leaning politics don't play as well.

Brigid Bergin: Yet, interestingly, Jimmy, we saw in this gubernatorial debate this week Republican candidate Bruce Blakeman, county executive from Nassau County. We all expected him to be going after Mayor Mamdani and doing exactly what Jon was saying there, targeting him as the boogeyman. He only mentioned him twice, right?

Jimmy Vielkind: Yes. I counted about 7 mentions, so we'll say fewer than 10 in case we missed one. It was striking that Bruce Blakeman only brought up Mayor Mamdani 40 minutes into this exchange. That's quite a contrast from last year, when he rode criticism of then-candidate Zohran Mamdani to reelection as Nassau County Executive just over the border. People I spoke with basically said it comes down to polling. Zohran Mamdani is a popular figure across the state. Republicans know it. Blakeman is training his fire on Hochul.

What's been interesting to me is the way that this incident in Marble Hill came up in the debate. I was surprised that Bruce Blakeman leaned in to it, backing up ICE and saying that the gentleman, Oscar Belgal, should not have been free, according to Blakeman, he had a pending arrest charge. He was making the case that this shows that there should be more cooperation with ICE. Of course, Governor Hochul was saying ICE is out of control. This is terrible. Echoing some of the points that Ms. Avila Chevalier just made on air.

Brigid Bergin: For all of you, I want to bring it back to the Jessica Tisch of it all. Mamdani has said he is standing by Tisch as she faces all this heat from his leftist base. How does Tisch work to potentially Mamdani's political advantage? Arya, do you want to start with that?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. I mean, I think we've seen time and time again progressive mayors try to rein in some of the concerns and criticisms about the NYPD, but have ultimately faced backlash for doing so, and maybe even it cost them their jobs. I think Mamdani is taken a much more arguably moderate position on criminal justice and policing reform. That's maybe to his advantage in this moment in order to not lose the police and to not lose a major voting force and huge force in terms of backers in his upcoming election as well.

Jon Campbell: Also, to not lose the support of Governor Hochul, who is a major supporter of Jessica Tisch as NYPD commissioner. It was almost a condition of the governor's support of Mayor Mamdani in last year's mayoral election. That is somebody that Mayor Mamdani needs Governor Hochul's support in Albany to get all sorts of things through the legislature and all sorts of funding, whether it's childcare funding, whether it's funding for housing or different housing policies. I mean, he needs the governor on his side. The governor supports Jessica Tisch.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, you're catching just the last few minutes of Who's Running This Place? I'm your host, Brigid Bergin. We're talking about immigration ahead of the midterm elections, and we're hearing your thoughts on how it's going to inform your vote and your takeaways from my conversation with 13th congressional candidate Darializa Avila Chevalier. Let's go to John, who is a teacher at Fordham in the Bronx. John, you're on WNYC.

John: Thanks for taking my call. I really appreciate your shining a bright light on this issue. I do think that there's a more general question about policing, not just for ICE, but even with uniformed officers. To be shooting people who are driving away or running away seems to be a real problem. I don't know why we don't just have a federal law that says you cannot shoot someone in the back as they're fleeing. You might remember that a few years ago, this happened at a McDonald's in Atlanta, and that was regular uniformed officers. That particular problem has nothing to do with being masked or disguised or unrecognizable.

As a law enforcement officert we have a law that says you don't shoot people in the back when they're fleeing? You know what? If you're faced with people who aren't threatening you with a knife, or aren't threatening you with a gun, rather, shoot for the legs? We've had many incidents. This is a good question for Commissioner Tisch. Where police in this city have shot people many times, 20, 30, 40 times, when all that they have is a knife, why can't they shoot the legs?

Brigid Bergin: John, thank you so much for that call and that perspective. Jimmy, you want to take that?

Jimmy Vielkind: Yes, John, I think that this is an interesting conversation. As Arya said, we're getting into new areas of thinking about what policies need to govern police, and the public is able to see and engage with this in a way because the proliferation of body cameras. We have footage of these incidents. I can remember Sean Bell who was shot in Jamaica on the way to home from a bachelor party, and we thought he had a gun. There's no video of that. When you have a video of the encounter showing, as you said, people being shot as they're fleeing, I think it changes and certainly moves the window of what is possible in these kinds of conversations.

Brigid Bergin: I just want to sneak in another text that came in. A listener writes, "I live in Marble Hill. It's unconscionable that an untrained masked man in construction vests with long guns who don't identify themselves are allowed to attempt to execute a man while sitting in his car with his five-year-old child. Shame on Jessica Tisch for pulling a Kristi Gnome and condemning a man for past allegations before he has had any ability to exercise his rights. These untrained ICE agents with guns are acting like out-of-control thugs who think they're free to dehumanize and punish people for a quota. Those ICE officers were also willing to let a man with a bullet in his neck bleed out on the street."

I think that's going to be our last listener comment. Before we go, I want to note this is the last panel that will be featuring Jimmy Vielkind. Jimmy, can you quickly tell us what's next for you?

Jimmy Vielkind: I'm very excited, Brigid. I'm going to be starting as a deputy managing editor at the Albany Times Union. I'll still be reporting on state government and politics, but it will be for another outlet. I've had such a wonderful time working with you and Jon and Arya and everyone else at WNYC. I hope I can still come on the air sometimes.

Brigid Bergin: I think we'll figure out a way to do just that. You have been a great teammate, and we are very sorry to see you go. That's all the time we have today. My thanks to Arya Sundaram, Jimmy Vielkind, Jon Campbell, and all of you who have listened and participated. Join me again next Thursday for more of Who's Running This Place? Thanks for listening.

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